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"Washers in the current path" - and an audit of my DC system

douglasheld

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Oct 9, 2023
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Location
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In sunshine_egg's signature:
#1 cause of "weird" issues is bad connections. Check for proper torque, good crimps and no washers or shrink in the current path...

Do you mind if I ask about this advice in your signature?
I have a number of cables with crimped lugs, screwed down onto threaded posts with washers. That's washers in the current path, yes?
Should I actually consider removing the manufacturer-provided washers? Any chance you can point to further education on this?

Thank you. I would like my simple learner system to be as safe as it can be.
 
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Hey, off-topic but do you mind if I ask about this advice in your signature?
I have a number of cables with crimped lugs, screwed down onto threaded posts with washers. That's washers in the current path, yes?

No. A washer in the current path would be a washer between a battery terminal and the cable.

You basically don't want anything between the conductive elements. If you have a nut on a washer holding a lug down on a battery terminal, it's fine.

conceptually, top to bottom:

Good:
nut
washer
lug
battery terminal

Bad:
nut
lug
washer <- between the main conducting elements.
battery terminal

Folks have used washers as shims to adjust the height of connections. If they're copper, that's fine, but steel is dramatically less conductive than copper.
 
No. A washer in the current path would be a washer between a battery terminal and the cable.

You basically don't want anything between the conductive elements. If you have a nut on a washer holding a lug down on a battery terminal, it's fine.

conceptually, top to bottom:

Good:
nut
washer
lug
battery terminal

Bad:
nut
lug
washer <- between the main conducting elements.
battery terminal

Folks have used washers as shims to adjust the height of connections. If they're copper, that's fine, but steel is dramatically less conductive than copper.

Thanks, I never thought about it. I will check all my connections, as well as test with the thermal camera of the system while my vacuum is running.
 
Hey, off-topic but do you mind if I ask about this advice in your signature?
I have a number of cables with crimped lugs, screwed down onto threaded posts with washers. That's washers in the current path, yes?
Should I actually consider removing the manufacturer-provided washers? Any chance you can point to further education on this?

Thank you. I would like my simple learner system to be as safe as it can be.
Hello, Moderator @upnorthandpersonal : May I please break off this thread starting from #5 into a new forum post?
 
Thanks, I never thought about it. I will check all my connections, as well as test with the thermal camera of the system while my vacuum is running.

So, I've undertaken an inventory of all my cables and connectors. My fuse box, 50mm^2 cables, lugs, crimpers, fuses, etc. etc. have all come in, but I am still waiting for my battery fuse holders which should arrive Tuesday.

I did a review of all my connections and corrected a few instances of washers in the current path. Many thanks to @sunshine_eggo as I never thought about distinguishing metals from conducting metals before.

I also undertook an inventory of all my cables. Where I could, I cut into the cable, measured the strands with a dial caliper, and calculated the true cross-sectional area. Where I couldn't cut, I went by the manufacturer's spec based on the printing on the cable. I also weighed shorter cables that I couldn't cut. All of the cables turned out to be either copper or tinned copper, no aluminium. Most of the cables are smaller than what they were sold as. I take it there are wide-ranging rounding errors and I found many bad look-up tables online for AWG <-> mm^2 conversions. I even found and corrected an erroneous value on the American Wire Gauge Wikipedia page. So lemme say, this is incredibly illuminating and brings me joy!

As a baseline before upgrading all my cables, I ran my vacuum for six minutes today, and taking a thermal image review of the components. For visual reference, the setup in view is this: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/2kw-garage-power-supply.75973/
Then, after I crimp and connect the new fuses and better cables, and throw away the bad circuit breaker, I can test again and see how the thermal character changes.

shop-vac power drop six minutes.PNG
Approx. 6 minutes voltage drop shown for a run of about 1.7kW AC through the inverter.

SOC loss during 6 min of vacuum.PNG
The six minute run seems to put the battery SOC back to about eight (sometimes cloudy and non-producing) days ago. It's February, I think this is tolerable for me and my planned use of the system. It's for LED lighting, occasional use of the shop-vac and power tools.

system overview before start.jpeg
System overview and thermal baseline. The ambient temperature is about 5C. The charger is charging around 1A.
You can compare this picture with https://diysolarforum.com/attachments/panel-above-jpg.186685/

battery and cables.jpeg
After running the test, the battery. Showing some warmed terminals and cables.

battery negative cable closeup.jpeg
Close-up of the negative battery cable pair. It heated to 20C.

battery terminal close-up.jpeg
Close-up of the cheap battery terminal and hex bolts. 15C.

circuit breaker input close-up.jpeg
The positive battery cables lead into the cheap circuit breaker input.
Oops, that's the rubber hat I measured! Well it is 29C. The lug must be high 20s, low 30s Celsius.
The circuit breaker body at the point of the red + overlay symbol, is 34C.

circuit breaker output close-up.jpeg
On the other side of the cheap circuit breaker, 36C on the little terminal.

inverter with input on the right.jpeg
Overview of the inverter body (12C) with the input cables illuminated (high 20s Celsius)

inverter input cables.jpeg
The set of cables coming into the inverter. The green + is on the negative inverter input terminal.
The cables are in the upper-20s - mid-30s Celsius.

inverter terminal close-up 2.jpeg
Real close-up of the positive inverter terminal. You can see the conductor part is cool, 18C.
The cable lug (red +) is 26C.

inverter output and control panel.jpeg
Here is the inverter output and control panel. Interestingly, there is a little warm point (30C) on the face.

vacuum.jpeg
And finally, my shop vac looking like 28C. Just so you get the visceral picture, human body temperature is 37C so these things are slightly warm, not hot.


My Summary

CableMy approximation or measurement of cross-sectional areaMy assessment
Cheap battery terminalsnot undertakenPerformance better than expected. I have heavier duty ones now however.
Battery output cables as a pair16.8 mm^2 x2 = 33.6mm^2Get too hot, 20C in six minutes
From cheap circuit breaker to inverter (positive side)33.6 mm^2Same spec as above, it gets too hot
Cheap circuit breakernot undertakenClearly inadequate, as multiple people have pointed out already.
InverterN/ASeems OK. Will look into the warm point on the face.
AC wiring and components1.5mm^2 flexible copperAC system seems adequate.

The USB controller may be drawing more energy than I expected. But, it was running USB lighting at the time. Will check again.
Battery to inverter, new cables50mm^2TBD
New heavy brass terminals with M10 boltStamped with "300-800A"TBD
 
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