Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today

1201 said:

I don't understand.

Are you saying it has to be certified so you can expert from battery to grid? Wouldn't you already have a permit in place for that?

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Pretty normal stuff.

Interconnection agreement process requires same SLD as building permit.

EDIT: my initial interconnect agreement covers only NEM. There is a distinct one for NEM+Storage

PTO required finaled permit and resending of plans and SLD.

California requires UL9540

All POCOs require 1741SB or equivalent at this point.

EDIT: Victron and Rosie are, last I checked 6 months ago, two certs behind (1741 and no 9540)

zanydroid said:

Pretty normal stuff.

Interconnection agreement process requires same SLD as building permit.

PTO required finaled permit and resending of plans and SLD.

California requires UL9540

All POCOs require 1741SB or equivalent at this point.

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Ok got it. So ul9540 is the big issue. Big $$$ components there

1201 said:

Ok got it. So ul9540 is the big issue. Big $$$ components there

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Yup. And even with 9540 DC ESS, if MidNite and Victron are still stuck at 1741 (and don’t bother to register with CEC) the best I can do is off grid or maybe exchange my NEM for zero export (pretty dumb choice to make). Depends on if there is a carve out for having both 1741 and 1741SB hardware on account.

zanydroid said:

I think a hybrid with export capability will generally synchronize against grid since this is table stakes for exporting.

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I don't know how inverters are designed, but I can envision a cheap vs expensive way to reconnect to grid after grid down:
1) stop inverting, switch to grid, resync to grid.
2) slowly adjust phase until synced with grid, then reconnect.
#1 has transfer time. #2 does not and is more gentler on load.

DIYrich said:

I don't know how inverters are designed, but I can envision a cheap vs expensive way to reconnect to grid after grid down:
1) stop inverting, switch to grid, resync to grid.
2) slowly adjust phase until synced with grid, then reconnect.
#1 has transfer time. #2 does not and is more gentler on load.

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I like two a lot better.

Steve777 said:

.. We as consumers can only judge by the companies reputation and the reviews and history of the products. That is why we (or at least me) read the reviews and stories about these inverters here and elsewhere online.

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Peoples reviews help but a problem you did not touch on is these Chinese factories source their stuff from other Chinese factories and the consistency of components is not consistent. You simply can not trust the Chinese without having a Western observer inspection process. Quality item one day and the next a ton of substandard copies flood the supply chain. A Company that puts their own brand on a Chinese product is at the mercy of this system.

When Japan geared up to be a major producer of goods they at first put out a bunch of cheap crap. But over time they altered their mindset to take pride in producing the best quality. The Chinese can produce good quality but they do not seem to care if not constantly forced to.

Mattb4 said:

Peoples reviews help but a problem you did not touch on is these Chinese factories source their stuff from other Chinese factories and the consistency of components is not consistent. You simply can not trust the Chinese without having a Western observer inspection process. Quality item one day and the next a ton of substandard copies flood the supply chain. A Company that puts their own brand on a Chinese product is at the mercy of this system.

When Japan geared up to be a major producer of goods they at first put out a bunch of cheap crap. But over time they altered their mindset to take pride in producing the best quality. The Chinese can produce good quality but they do not seem to care if not constantly forced to.

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That's why it was good to read that the manufacturer they've chosen does work for Eaton.

Brucey said:

That's why it was good to read that the manufacturer they've chosen does work for Eaton.

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That really doesn't mean much. It really comes down to what was specified for the inverter. The Chinese will build whatever you want.
They can maintain quality control if so motivated. Not unlike US factories.
This is why I'm hesitant to dump serious $$ into a 10+ KW inverter.
Luxpower is a good example with the EG 18kpv inverter that sells for over $5K. Look at all of the issues with that inverter.
And it cost how much?? Some of this stuff is bleeding edge. When they have to revise the firmware to fix issues which should have been solved before it was introduced and the invert cost $5K plus, that seems bleeding edge. When I buy a furnace, do I want to tweak it over and over again and ask for firmware updates? Or do I want to install the air filter, turn it on the furnace and forget about it. Plus this secret parameter stuff is crazy.

Dave911 said:

That really doesn't mean much. It really comes down to what was specified for the inverter. The Chinese will build whatever you want.
They can maintain quality control if so motivated. Not unlike US factories.
This is why I'm hesitant to dump serious $$ into a 10+ KW inverter.
Luxpower is a good example with the EG 18kpv inverter that sells for over $5K. Look at all of the issues with that inverter.
And it cost how much?? Some of this stuff is bleeding edge. When they have to revise the firmware to fix issues which should have been solved before it was introduced and the invert cost $5K plus, that seems bleeding edge. When I buy a furnace, do I want to tweak it over and over again and ask for firmware updates? Or do I want to install the air filter, turn it on the furnace and forget about it. Plus this secret parameter stuff is crazy.

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IMO, that does seem to be a thing with MidNite, they announce something, keep us waiting till they work out all the bugs, then release it into the wild. Very unlike the current SxgSxxxr sales model where we are the beta testers.

"Made in the same factory", i.e. Contract Manufacturing, is quite big in the industry.

I spent years at Flextronics, and OEMs like HP and Ericsson who used to have their own PCB assembly houses, wafer fabs, etc. outsourced a great deal. Flextronics grew from $40M at the time they acquired a start-up where I worked to $20B, largely by acquiring factories from OEMs, also building out factories in China. Domestic and European production was transferred to China for cost reduction. Solectron used to be the industry leader, Flex passed them while they were declining, then acquired them to become a $30B manufacturer. Somewhere along the line, a little company Foxconn passed Flex to hit $40B.

Today of course a great many top names are made with premium quality by contract manufacturers, e.g. Apple.

There is good/bad/ugly and various shenanigans which go on. Sometimes playing out publicly, probably mostly behind the scenes.

Dave911 said:

When I buy a furnace, do I want to tweak it over and over again and ask for firmware updates? Or do I want to install the air filter, turn it on the furnace and forget about it. Plus this secret parameter stuff is crazy.

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I'm maintaining the furnace that came with my house when I bought it (used) 24 years ago.
Had trouble with the flame sensor. I've replaced control board once (2nd hand). Recently tried washing it in IPA (rubbing alcohol, not beer) and it worked again briefly.

I've since bought a new replacement, just installed it with a couple adapters for spade terminal size and gender. Working for now, hopefully problem solved. This lets me burn gas instead of electricity; I just blew through my NEM surplus a month ago.

Note the low tech, microcontroller, relays. None of this "AI powered" prediction of what sort of comfort I'm going to desire. Fine if that is offered in a thermostat, 3 wire analog connection, easy to swap. I do NOT want internet connection required so I can set it by iPhone or something. Just a pushbutton programmable thermostat.








Inverters? I just unboxed and configured a Sunny Island built in 2007, no need for firmware update (unless I want closed-loop lithium, and yes the latest model firmware runs on earliest model as well.)

Chinese will swap to lesser parts "running changes" without the vendor knowing.

Unless you're opening up every unit before sale you'll never know.

I'm sure Eaton is not having someone in the US opening up every unit they get from China.

And if they did... at least some of those people are going to be mailing it in and not paying attention.

zanydroid said:

I'm sure Eaton is not having someone in the US opening up every unit they get from China.

And if they did... at least some of those people are going to be mailing it in and not paying attention.

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I can only speculate but they probably setup shop themselves and have it watchdogged by state-side folks.

Dave911 said:

Luxpower is a good example with the EG 18kpv inverter that sells for over $5K. Look at all of the issues with that inverter.

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Please enlighten the reader of all the problems with this inverter, and maybe balance with the features that it also has.

Quattrohead said:

Please enlighten the reader of all the problems with this inverter, and maybe balance with the features that it also has.

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Do a search on "18KPV" on this forum.
For a device that lives in a fairly small market space, that inverter has a lot of issues.
Features that it has? Balance it with what? It seems to have a lot of firmware issues.
I wouldn't buy one from what I have read. Maybe in a year after they test and refine the inverter on "buyers".

Dave911 said:

Do a search on "18KPV" on this forum.
For a device that lives in a fairly small market space, that inverter has a lot of issues.
Features that it has? Balance it with what? It seems to have a lot of firmware issues.
I wouldn't buy one from what I have read. Maybe in a year after they test and refine the inverter on "buyers".

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I believe Quattro has been following the threads.

So they were interested in your specific feedback and analysis.

Dave911 said:

Do a search on "18KPV" on this forum.
For a device that lives in a fairly small market space, that inverter has a lot of issues.
Features that it has? Balance it with what? It seems to have a lot of firmware issues.
I wouldn't buy one from what I have read. Maybe in a year after they test and refine the inverter on "buyers".

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How would you stack it against XW for on-grid use? That one had even more thread carnage, and a close reading will probably indicate less well behaved firmware than 18kpv for advanced on-grid use cases.

And that has a "good reputation". Deserved for off-grid and proven longevity of the platform, sure.

I would say the 18kpv is also clearly ahead of the $1500-2000 UL9540 inverters. Manual is better, more users on the forum, more capability. It may not be up there with SI, SBS, or SolArk.

zanydroid said:

How would you stack it against XW for on-grid use? That one had even more thread carnage, and a close reading will probably indicate less well behaved firmware than 18kpv for advanced on-grid use cases.

And that has a "good reputation". Deserved for off-grid and proven longevity of the platform, sure.

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Ha ha... I'm not looking for other inverters that might be worse!

I think Quattrohead should tell us why the 18kpv is decent. I see a device that was released too soon with features that "require" that SS/EG4 intervene for some setups. This device has been released for a relatively short period of time, yet it has had a ton of press on this forum. Some positive, but most is regarding issues with the device.
For example:
Do a search on this forum for 18kpv, and look at the issues.
Then do a search on Solark and see the results.

What a difference!

BTW, I am not focused on a on-grid application. I think for many, if not most people, on grid doesn't make any sense.
I think the government and utilities are basically trying to punish on-grid users. And they would like to punish off-grid users as well. The utilities are government sanctioned monopolies.

Dave911 said:

Do a search on this forum for 18kpv, and look at the issues.
Then do a search on Solark and see the results.

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Sure, but we don't have the denominator (prior probability) on how many users there are for each platform, that are here. And we would need to correct by how much commissioning is happening right now / has happened in the past.

The fact that the 18kpv has seen the high level of adoption (and therefore thread gore) indicates that it has a feature set and spec sheet that works for people.

Dave911 said:

Ha ha... I'm not looking for other inverters that might be worse!

I think Quattrohead should tell us why the 18kpv is decent. I see a device that was released too soon with features that "require" that SS/EG4 intervene for some setups. This device has been released for a relatively short period of time, yet it has had a ton of press on this forum. Some positive, but most is regarding issues with the device.
For example:
Do a search on this forum for 18kpv, and look at the issues.
Then do a search on Solark and see the results.

What a difference!

BTW, I am not focused on a on-grid application. I think for many, if not most people, on grid doesn't make any sense.
I think the government and utilities are basically trying to punish on-grid users. And they would like to punish off-grid users as well. The utilities are government sanctioned monopolies.

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Well, I dunno. Electricity where I live is 10 cents a Kwh.

Solar cannot come close to meeting my needs without an enormous and costly system and even with that, I would have to have natural gas or wood for heat, hot water and clothes drying.

A $40,000.00 solar system would take 20 years to cancel out the power bill and that assumes the batteries and inverters and solar panels last that long and continue well beyond that.