diy solar

diy solar

1120Ah (280Ah x 4) Battery Bank wiring questions?

tmckenna

New Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
128
So I just got back from a dry camping (off grid) camping trip and I can certainly say I need a new battery. Not only is my battery a Lead Acid, but its only 55Ah or so. We used electric stuff very sparingly and the battery was still dead in no time.

I'd like to "future proof" my camper setup a bit so I think I'll be going the route of the Alibaba 280Ah cells. I don't mind the price for the 4 set minimum so I'll probably do that. I imagine its overkill but that tends to be how I do almost everything.

Now my question is regarding the wiring and BMS. Am I better off using busbars to wire the cells into one large 12V 1120Ah battery with one BMS? Or should I do 4 separate BMS, and end up with 4x 280Ah batteries that I would just wire in parallel to the campers inverter? Also something to keep in mind when it comes to BMS is the fact that I'd like to have 400A total output. I won't ever use that much but most decent 3000w inverters can spike 4800w or even more so I'd like to be able to output that if I have to.
 
Just to make sure, you plan to buy 16 280Ah cells and make a 12V battery?

You will see it both ways.

If you test and match all cells for capacity and IR, I wouldn't hesitate to have a single 4P4S battery with BMS; however, without testing, I would be inclined to have 4 separate 4S batteries in parallel with their own BMS.

Given the 400A need, you might be better off with 4X BMS capable of 120A each. Spendy, but good - overkill
 
I would make 4 discreet batteries
Each with its own bms and shunt sampler.
Then connect them together using the "posts" method as described in this document on page 19 https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf

Make sure your charge capacity is .2 c for all the batteries and still below .5c if one goes offline.
The shunt samplers are so you can verify that they all pull together.
For that amount of power you might also consider higher system voltages.
 
Just to make sure, you plan to buy 16 280Ah cells and make a 12V battery?

You will see it both ways.

If you test and match all cells for capacity and IR, I wouldn't hesitate to have a single 4P4S battery with BMS; however, without testing, I would be inclined to have 4 separate 4S batteries in parallel with their own BMS.

Given the 400A need, you might be better off with 4X BMS capable of 120A each. Spendy, but good - overkill

Yes, I've looked around a lot and the best option for 280ah cells right now seems to be "shenzhen basen". Their listing is for 4 Pcs, and the minimum order is 4. So minimum order is effectively 16 cells.

What BMS would you recommend?
 
@tmckenna I remember now.
 
Linked in post #2
Perfect thank you. Can anyone link a good thread or youtube video that outlines the setup and balancing process. I'm familiar with the Busbar, wiring and physical setup process. It's just the testing and balancing that I'm not 100% sure about just yet.
 
@tmckenna I remember now.
yes sir, thats me. Been seesawing a lot of ideas around but this seems like my best bet
 
@tmckenna I remember now.

That one got quite cluttered with Solar and AC discussions. I've since figured all that out. Just trying to nail down the battery setup
 
I'll chime in.
4X 12V/280AH set in Parallel with a BMS each, will allow each battery "Pack" within the bank to share load & charge if properly wired (as noted in the Victron Doc). Each BMS should be able to handle the Full Load on its own, so that Full Charge or Discharge you expect to hit. This also provides failover safety & redundancy should something go awry. REMEMBER, Murphy's Laws always apply to those who are not prepared.

There are MANY BMS's to choose from and they vary in function, capability and features, of course the price point float right along with that. I will NOT recommend a BMS because it is subjective and there is no info here to base a recommend on. BUT see below.

You mention you have a Genset that can output 4800W @ 120V which translates to 40A @ 120V. Most High Frequency Inverters (known as Car Inverters, they are cheap MOSFET Based) can do X2 their rating, so 3000W will do 6000W. Good Low Frequency Inverters with heavy copper wound coils can do X3 their rating, so 3000W can be 9000W for surge handling. 3000W @ 12V = 250A from the battery bank. (without deration) so 266A with derated. Also appreciate that with that amount of amperage @ 12V, you will need serious cabling like "Royal Excelene 4/0 Fine Welding Wire" see table below.

NOW the FUGLY Part. When it comes to BMS, there are two basic types, mosFET based which typically cap out at 200A because they have to dissipate a lot of heat, there are all "one piece" and the values given for them is pretty much the max capacity for them, meaning taking it to the edge of their performance design. So typically with FET based BMS, it's suggested that it handles a minimum of 25% more Amps than expected but 50% more leaves safety margin. The 2nd type of BMS, uses Relays/Contactors to control ON/OFF states such as Low/High Volt disconnect or temp disconnect. The FET based does all this internally and that generates heat. In the case of relay based BMS, they can handle whatever the Relays are rated at, they are available from 50A to 1000A. BTW: EV's use Contactor based controls, as they are all heavy amp use. Some BMS have balancing functions (passive or active) and more, so that has to be decided upon as well. Having a BMS that can balance is a nice extra which saves having to buy a balancer separately. Typical FET based BMS, will allow for a charge rate at 50% of it's output rating, so a 200A BMS would allow 100A Charge (generally). A relay based BMS doesn't care, it's up to the relays.

Batteries: Everyone sees the big numbers and get all googlie eyed but hold up on that. The bigger the battery system (amp hours) the more OOMPH it takes to charge it. Realize that a 280AH cell can accept 1C Charge Rate @ 280AMPS ! now you will NOT be charging them at 1C rate not even 0.5C (140A) There is some serious math which I won't get into but this is enough to point out that you must consider how you will be charging. I use Solar Charge Controller and Solar Panels for charging which does up to 79A, my Inverter/Charger can also accept an SCC INput (independently) or take Grid or Generator power to charge my bank but it is limited to 50A. Another point on LARGE cells most won't mention, is the larger the cell the more potential for it to wander voltage wise, if they are "Properly Matched by Voltage & Internal Resistance) this is not a huge issue but Volt & IR Matched cells will cost a dear penny ! Simple Voltage Matched will not but you must expect deviations between cells. We are not talking about 18650 mAh cells here, these blighters are big. REMEMBER that a 280AH cell is 5Kgs/11Lbs for ONE !

FYI HEADS UP:

Known Good 280AH cell vendor Luyan Tech, a sister company of XUBA electronics.
280AH x 16 pcs Bundle including shipping DDP (duties taxes paid) $1706 USD

REF on INversion Tech LOW vs HIGH frequency:

Royal Excelene Chart:
Excelene-Wire-Info.JPG

Hope it helps, Good Luck
Steve
 
@Steve_S
Thank you for all your information. I'll try and see if I can touch on each part individually.

I figured the individual battery "packs" would be the best option. Just the idea of having more separation between some of the cells, and more quantity of BMS seemed to make more sense.

Regarding wiring planning on using 1/0 wiring for the batteries and inverter. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that should be fine for high amperage at 12v.

I'm still learning a lot about the whole BMS side of things. Thats gunna take a while but i think ill get caught up.

Everyone seems to mention the charging aspect of it, which I'm sure many people overlook. I haven't overlooked that but my idea is that I have enough battery to power my rig for a very long period of time, and the solar wouldn't necessarily keep up with the drain but it would work to extend the life.

(I'm at work so its a bit shorthanded)
 
1/0 would be the BARE minimum considering you think you can pull up tp 250A. This copper cabling is NOT cheap and you only want to buy it ONCE. I started my system with 2/0 wire and a 3kw inverter/charger, when I had to upgrade to 4KW Inverter/Charger I also had to up my cabling, so I went with 4/0 and will never have to do it again, thank goodness. It was not chump change !

I'm an odd duck though, at the moment I have 856AH of Heavy Lead Acid + 910AH of LFP. The Heavy Lead is going to a new purpose as I finish my transition.

FYI: I was just made aware that Signatures do not appear on phones if you are using a phone. Might want to look at the links in my signature once your home and on a real device.
 
I respectfully disagree with @Steve_S about needing every bms to be able to handle the full load.
Great if you can but not strictly necessary.
As long as you can carry on with n-1 strings you have a reasonable level of fault tolerance.
If you lose another one then the whole system should trip out on over current and wait for manual intervention.
 
Last edited:
If you have 4 packs, 3 shutdown for whatever reason, the last one has to be able to handle the full potential, if charging OR discharging. If the Last Pack Standing cannot do so and is "overdrawn" it will shutdown (if lucky) if charging and all of a sudden it gets the full charge capacity, it also needs to be able to handle it else the BMS will shutdown. Pushing 75A to a BMS that can only take 50A will absolutely cause it to shutoff. (provided the BMS is good enough to do so) It's just my opinion based on having been down that rabbit hole.
 
If you have 4 packs, 3 shutdown for whatever reason, the last one has to be able to handle the full potential, if charging OR discharging. If the Last Pack Standing cannot do so and is "overdrawn" it will shutdown (if lucky) if charging and all of a sudden it gets the full charge capacity, it also needs to be able to handle it else the BMS will shutdown. Pushing 75A to a BMS that can only take 50A will absolutely cause it to shutoff. (provided the BMS is good enough to do so) It's just my opinion based on having been down that rabbit hole.

I understand where you're coming from but considering in 99% of situations the draw from my camper will be less than 500w I think I would be okay. I would probably do 100A BMS on each just for piece of mind but again it'd be complete overkill.
 
Hoping this doesn't go the way of the last thread, but ultimately I'd like to install a 9000BTU 25 SEER mini split in my camper. In most situations it should pull maybe 400 watts or less. Aside from my microwave or fireplace, even if I had every LED light, water pump, TV and radio on, I think I'd still be WELL under 1000 watts. So yes, 1120Ah and 400A discharge capabilities is complete overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
 
If you have 4 packs, 3 shutdown for whatever reason, the last one has to be able to handle the full potential, if charging OR discharging. If the Last Pack Standing cannot do so and is "overdrawn" it will shutdown (if lucky) if charging and all of a sudden it gets the full charge capacity, it also needs to be able to handle it else the BMS will shutdown. Pushing 75A to a BMS that can only take 50A will absolutely cause it to shutoff. (provided the BMS is good enough to do so) It's just my opinion based on having been down that rabbit hole.

Well I'll be dammed https://www.technology.org/2018/09/...-only-three-dead-engines-could-cause-trouble/
 
I understand where you're coming from but considering in 99% of situations the draw from my camper will be less than 500w I think I would be okay. I would probably do 100A BMS on each just for piece of mind but again it'd be complete overkill.

I'm in the same situation. I'll likely never draw enough amps to come close to pushing the limits on the 120 amp BMS on either of my 4s batteries.

OverKillSolar did some testing on the 4s BMS he sells and pushed it past the 120 amp rating without it failing.
 
Back
Top