6 space RV park powered by solar only? Is it doable?
- Thread starter dlrotter
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I just proposed a $25,000 system that is obviously greater than $18k but still seems reasonable. Do you disagree with my numbers?
schmism
Solar Addict
Yep, I think the starting point for your assumptions is flawed.
Any given morning
a coffee maker is used - 1500w
a microwave is used - 1500w
a toaster is used - 1500w
We arn't camping we are living in our homes.
What are the odds they have an 2 place induction cook top instead of a gas stove because they didn't want to run gas lines in their tiny house?
What are the odds they have a waster/dryer? 50/50? so 3 spots will pull an extra 1000w?
And even if you DID convince everyone to live on a power budget that worked out to be an avg of 500w over 24hrs. You also assumed its only 6 spots. What happens when he wants to expand to 12? he has to drop another $25k? And to get to the last 20 OP suggested? another 25K?
Even with what I would argue is an impossibly low consumption number the numbers still don't make sense.
I'm going off the information I was given not what someone makes up. He also said these were Tiny homes as well.
Regardless what are the odds all 6 units use all 4 things at the exact same time. you are listing 5kw he will under my system have 16kw of capacity at any one time.
Why are you all so freaking negative? Maybe it is not cost effective but this is a discussion forum not a you cant do it forum. I would much rather we discuss ways to do it not why it shouldn't be done. Personally I think $25,000 for 6 units is reasonable.
He is also not talking about a RV resort he is talking a Tiny Home village so your assumptions of appliances while true for a random RV can be adjusted for tiny home appliances.
Sorry I realize my words may come off as angry I really just like figuring out how to do things not hearing how things can not be done. I do appreciate everybody's thoughts.
Deleted-User
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$18K really doesn't sound expensive to me. Solar is still extremely fiddly, expensive, with ongoing maintenance/monitoring. Pay the electric company, spread the cost over X years recovered through your development activities (rents?), THEN consider $1.49/watt grid-tie to turn the numbers around going forward.
schmism
Solar Addict
I get equally frustrated with people that think solar is this great thing, WE HAVE TO HAVE SOLAR! Then they actually go to install it and realize that it costs 2x or 3x what they thought, so they downsize the system. Then they struggle with that undersized system for years. Its much harder to convince them that they should spend 2x -3x as much 1 to 2 years later JUST to get back to normal. The sour taste of a solar system that never worked like we wanted is very hard to get rid of.
We are both right and wrong at the same time when it comes to guessing at loads. My version of the loads are no more/less likely than your version. But we both know thats what 95% of the questions are that come here boil down to.
And back to THIS question.
Even if I consede the loads point to you. Your napkin math (its all napkin math at this point) still only covers 1/3 of what OP said he may want to do long term. $20K grid up front works for all growth in the future. $20k worth of solar up front only works for 1/3 the project.
Yes it will cost more in the future But I do not think proportionally though. Hope the OP returns and continues the discussion. We do not even know his market maybe he can market it as a "green truly off grid organic bla bla bla vacation"
schmism
Solar Addict
Now if you told me you had $40k to spend on power for this project. I could be convinced to get behind a $20k solar project (for backup) and $20k for grid.
I despise grid tie mainly because they can change the deal on you at any time. That being said it is an option. I just think the returns are going to continue to diminish as more and more homes get solar and the rates paid back plumnet
I must also say I have alterior reasoning for not liking the grid as they burnt down my house and more than a few friends homes in multiple states.
Deleted-User
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Tightwad rule #1: Spend other people's money. A development will always have ongoing utilities expenses (water, sewer/septic, garbage collection, road/facilities,etc.) so I see no reason power shouldn't be treated the same way, especially when you cannot control/dictate its consumption by the consumer. Presently, new Lennar/KB/et al. market homes grid-tied with great success, but solar is a selling point, and the proposition of them selling these homes as 'off-grid', but solar, changes that selling point drastically.
Deleted-User
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Understood! Wife and I toured Paradise/Magalia extensively, and while I thought it would be literally paradise (we were looking at properties overlooking the feather river canyon-beautiful), wife was uncomfortable with basically only 1 exit from the area. I thought she was way over-reacting...but she was prescient, and that's why she's my better half. I miss Paradise...it will be found, but in another state.
schmism
Solar Addict
Thats seems to be a gripe that should be directed at the regulatory body for allowing a private grid operator to keep the condition of the grid in such a state as to cause such a problem... as oppsed to being directed at the grid itself. eg the grid didnt cause its own problems, the gready bastards that profit off it did.
but lets not get bogged down in politics when we can argue over reasonable tiny home load usage
fat_old_sun
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I ran a quote for someone with a similar business plan. He had 30 acres about 50 miles Las Vegas & wanted to run a 100% off-grid RV park. We came up with almost 30 kWh/day/spot. This did not include the energy needs of common facilities & infrastructure (office, restrooms, etc).
Yes they market solar well the problem is these guys are salesmen and not to be trusted lol.
That is an incredibly small number. Doable by a VERY committed solar power enthusiast, but I seriously doubt if many person would be willing to stay within that power budget. Average US residential power consumption is 10,650 kWh per month (355 kWh per day). Hawaii has the lowest power consumption in the USA, at 6300 kWh per month which is 210 kWh per day.
Ignoring the question of if 30 kWh per day is sufficient, here is my cost breakdown for what I think it would take to accomplish a system capable of providing 30 kWh per day for 3 days (to allow for cloudy weather). Since you are spending stupidly huge amounts of money on the batteries, I am going to go pure Victron so you can do the best job possible of protecting those batteries.
- 86 kWh of battery storage. 96, 280 AH, 3.2V cells at ~$70 each (shipped), total $7000.
- 6 kW of solar panels (providing 30 kWh of solar input per day), 20, 300 W solar panels at $200 each, total $4000
- Victron Quatro 48/3000/35-50/50 120V inverter charger. $1855.
- Victron Smart Solar 250/100. $900.
- Victron BVM-712. $205
- Victron Venus GX. $300
I am assuming you will be able to get these batteries at a great price ($70 each shipped) since you are buying so many. I have no idea what they will really cost when you start ordering upwards of 500 batteries at a time. Current battery price trends are spiking sharply upwards however, so you may end up paying more for the batteries than this.
I am not involved with residential solar systems at all and it is possible there are lower cost residential solar systems with comparable output available. My understanding is that those tend to use much higher DC voltage (not easily compatible with batteries) and are grid tie only (won't work without grid power), so you will need someone to quote you on what it is available to understand what this is going to cost for real.
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I forgot to include a BMS in that system. Since you are going pure Victron, the BMS will not need to handle full battery power.
The reason I picked a Charger/Inverter is so you can operate from generator power in the event of serious solar input shortfall. Your customers are not going to accept the AC or lights going out because there has been an extended period of cloud cover. I would wire AC from your central location to each cabin, so you can use one or more larger generators to power a bank of cabins if necessary. Nobody is going to want to listen to a generator all night long, so a centralized generator makes a lot of sense from a quality of life standpoint.
I would locate the batteries and electrical equipment at each cabin to reduce power distribution losses. It would be ok to locate the solar panels in a central spot and run the solar panel voltage of each group of 20 panel (at 200V) to each cabin. This concept would make each system redundant so if any one system breaks down, you only lose power to that one cabin and the other cabins stay up.
I would also network each cabin's Venus GX to the central location, so you could monitor what is going on in each cabin's power system remotely (ethernet).
The reason I picked a Charger/Inverter is so you can operate from generator power in the event of serious solar input shortfall. Your customers are not going to accept the AC or lights going out because there has been an extended period of cloud cover. I would wire AC from your central location to each cabin, so you can use one or more larger generators to power a bank of cabins if necessary. Nobody is going to want to listen to a generator all night long, so a centralized generator makes a lot of sense from a quality of life standpoint.
I would locate the batteries and electrical equipment at each cabin to reduce power distribution losses. It would be ok to locate the solar panels in a central spot and run the solar panel voltage of each group of 20 panel (at 200V) to each cabin. This concept would make each system redundant so if any one system breaks down, you only lose power to that one cabin and the other cabins stay up.
I would also network each cabin's Venus GX to the central location, so you could monitor what is going on in each cabin's power system remotely (ethernet).
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Wow In our on grid city house we use 10kw per day and feel guilty for that
90 kw for 1 space is an atrocious waste of power and money. How do you figure so much is necessary remember these are tiny homes probably 500 Sq feet
schmism
Solar Addict
lols here on the farm... (looking at my utility bill) aug - 79kwh /day july - 70 avg for last year 64kwh/day
In 2019, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,649 kilowatthours (kWh), an average of about 877 kWh per month.
That's 30Kwh a Day!
You somehow confused the Annual usage with Monthly.
355Kwh a Day would be $1278 a month at 12 cents Kwh
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Just come I'm an engineer, doesn't mean I still don't slip the odd decimal point.
Thanks for catching that. I live in Phoenix AZ, so those power numbers seemed legit. I have paid $500 a month for power here in the summer.Glad I went with the 30 kWh per day number. Hopefully, the rest of my numbers still end up at about $14K per cabin (assuming you allow for reserve battery capacity to cover cloudy days).