Advice on buying 12V LiFePO4 in Europe?

[Tony_]

There are a lot of battery suppliers in the US, but I'm doing a campervan build in France. As an American it's not so easy for me to buy batteries here and this is a huge purchase for me. I'd appreciate any help.

Through another thread I thought I wanted 3 or 4 12V 206Ah SOK Batteries, since these are available in Europe and were reviewed well on mobile-solarpower.com. But re-reading a post by @TacomaJoe got me concerned that these batteries might have poor current characteristics. Here they are:

Charge information:
Recommended Charge Current 40 A
Maximum Charge Current 50 A
Recommended Charge Voltage 14.4V ~14.6V
Discharge information:
Maximum Continuous Discharge Current 100 A
Peak Discharge Current 200 A

If I understand right, it's the inverter that I need to be concerned about. I am looking at a Victron MultiPlus 12V 3000VA (or perhaps a 2000VA). I will have 900W on my van, and I'm going with 12V since I also want alternator charging (I drive a lot). I'm doing my best to "future proof" things.

In this video @Will Prowse reviews a 12V 400Ah Ampertime which can discharge at 250A. But he says that SOK are higher quality. So I'm trying to figure out what's more important. (By the way, I'm not bothered with the low temp issue -- this van is for full time living -- and I'll put in a switch).

I'd appreciate any advice on whether the above batteries will be a problem, and if so, what alternatives I could get here in France?

Thanks.

 

[ShaneC]

First step is to decide what you will need to power in the van, what's your max load going to be? Fridge + laptop +???, add up the maximum you want to support. A 3kw inverter at 12v will require massive cables to handle the 250A+ draw. Maybe you really only need a 1.2kw inverter which will be cheaper and smaller cables which are cheaper too and easier to work with.

Next step is to determine how much power you'll consume in a day, fridge on 24 hours? Measure it's usage in that time or find it on the spec sheet. How many hours will you have other things plugged in? Here's where you'll want to oversize a bit but you can add more batteries later if you need more capacity. Let's say you need 3kwh over a day, you might be fine hoping for sunshine that day to help or maybe you want to ensure even with zero solar or alternator charging that you can get 24 hours from it, that's personal choice.

Your batteries can output 100A continuous so just one can power a 1.2kw inverter. As for charging you'll only be able to charge a single battery at about 500w. If you want to make full use of your solar then maybe get two batteries. A 40A mppt is already reasonably expensive though, 60A even more so. You could consider dropping to about 5/600w of panels to overpanel a 40A mppt and then there's no risk of overcharging a single battery.

If you do decide to go for a larger inverter then you'll need to add enough batteries to match the current draw of the inverter. A 3kw inverter could pull as much as 300A so that's 3 batteries needed and as I said very large cables. Few people would recommend 3kw on a 12v system. Even 2kw is pushing it.

 

[Tony_]

Thank you @ShaneC -- I read your comments twice, but to keep things brief, I will only comment on part.
I wrote that I want 600-800Ah ("3 or 4 12V 206Ah SOK") and you wrote:

Your batteries can output 100A continuous so just one can power a 1.2kw inverter.

A 3kw inverter could pull as much as 300A so that's 3 batteries needed

So, putting this together it seems that the "3 or 4 12V 206Ah SOK" would work for a 3kw inverter and the 12V 400Ah Ampertime (which can discharge at 250A) would be more than enough for a 3kw inverter. Right? If so, this answers a key question implied in my post; that is, can I just add up the current discharge rates of each battery (placed in parallel)? You seem to be saying, "yes".

Can I ask how you arrived at the 300A figure? That is, did you divide 3kW by 10? If so, is that because 12V batteries can discharge at 10V? As you can see, I am still on a learning curve so thanks for your patience.

Finally, my ultimate question was for advice between the two batteries which I've found available in Europe: the SOK (which has quality according to Will, but low discharge rate) verses AmpereTime (higher discharge rate, but less quality according to Will). Thanks.

 

[squowse]

There are good sellers in the UK now if that’s any good. Unfortunately Brexit has probably messed up a simple export to France.

LiFePO4 Prismatic Cells | Fogstar Batteries

We offer a wide range of LiFePO4 Prismatic Cells purchased directly from the manufacturers. Legitimate cells that come with a QC certifications to state that the voltages, capacity and sizes are all matched.

www.fogstar.co.uk

 

[ShaneC]

I can't comment on quality, personally I built my own with good quality Eve 280ah cells, there are a couple of Europe based retailers, I'm uk based myself and used fogstar. Pair them with a well known BMS like JBD that meets your desired spec and you have a battery you know is good (assuming you build it well :D).

Yes you can add up output current capacity when batteries are in parallel.

I reached 300A by multiplying 3000w by 1.2 which takes into account inverter efficiency and then dividing by 11.8V which would be the low voltage cutoff of your batteries. That gives 305A. Most inverters are not so inefficient so safe enough to round down to 300A. That said you don't want to be maxing out your battery output capacity regularly, you probably won't be pulling 3kw that often but worth bearing in mind.

Do you understand how to size cables correctly to handle that current? Do you have a very good reason for needing 3kw? If so you might want to look at a 24v system but I'm not sure how you can charge that from the alternator.

 

[Pi Curio]

Edit: yea, if you can avoid it, don't go with PowerQueen

 

[Tony_]

@ShaneC Thanks for answering my questions. Yes I have very good reasons for wanting 3kw inverter power (or at least 2kw). And yes I do understand the need for huge wires with 12V. It's the price I pay for having alternator charging.

@Daxo Yes, I looked at PowerQueen -- it's in the @Will Prowse video I mentioned where he reviews the 400Ah AmpereTime, and he points out that it has much less power per size and explicitly says he'd choose AmpereTime instead.

@squowse you are exactly right about brexit - it makes buying from the UK more expensive for me. A shame because that would make purchases easier for me since I can speak a little British

 

[atelierminceur]

@ShaneC Thanks for answering my questions. Yes I have very good reasons for wanting 3kw inverter power (or at least 2kw). And yes I do understand the need for huge wires with 12V. It's the price I pay for having alternator charging.

@Daxo Yes, I looked at PowerQueen -- it's in the @Will Prowse video I mentioned where he reviews the 400Ah AmpereTime, and he points out that it has much less power per size and explicitly says he'd choose AmpereTime instead.

@squowse you are exactly right about brexit - it makes buying from the UK more expensive for me. A shame because that would make purchases easier for me since I can speak a little British

what did you ended up doing ? Since i'm in a similar situation and in Europe i'm curious

 

[Tony_]

@atelierminceur
I ended up taking advantage of Roamer's consulting service, which cost something like €125 but is refunded if you decide to purchase battery / electrical components from them. The major items I got were: a Roamer 460Smart3, Victron MultiPlus-II (12/3000/120-32 230V), Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC charger 12/12-30A (360W) Non-isolated, SmartSolar MPPT 100/50, SmartShunt 500A/50mV, Cerbo GX.

They have just opened up a branch in the Netherlands which turns out to be very important for those buying from Europe because of rules about delivering batteries, delivery times, and VAT charges. Because I made my order before the Netherlands branch was open I ended up waiting over five months for my battery, and even the delivery of the other items was delayed more than I would like. On the other hand, they did make me a free upgrade on the battery type, and I've been impressed with their expertise.

So, my first advice is to get a very firm understanding of when your items will be delivered if you choose to go with them. Secondly, make sure you have a clear understanding of any VAT charges. If you make a purchase in the UK, for example, you pay the VAT charges of the UK but if an item is delivered to France, for example, you pay the VAT charges of France. I admit that I was ignorant about these things. Part of my education as a new European.

 

[squowse]

@atelierminceur
I ended up taking advantage of Roamer's consulting service, which cost something like €125 but is refunded if you decide to purchase battery / electrical components from them. The major items I got were: a Roamer 460Smart3, Victron MultiPlus-II (12/3000/120-32 230V), Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC charger 12/12-30A (360W) Non-isolated, SmartSolar MPPT 100/50, SmartShunt 500A/50mV, Cerbo GX.

They have just opened up a branch in the Netherlands which turns out to be very important for those buying from Europe because of rules about delivering batteries, delivery times, and VAT charges. Because I made my order before the Netherlands branch was open I ended up waiting over five months for my battery, and even the delivery of the other items was delayed more than I would like. On the other hand, they did make me a free upgrade on the battery type, and I've been impressed with their expertise.

So, my first advice is to get a very firm understanding of when your items will be delivered if you choose to go with them. Secondly, make sure you have a clear understanding of any VAT charges. If you make a purchase in the UK, for example, you pay the VAT charges of the UK but if an item is delivered to France, for example, you pay the VAT charges of France. I admit that I was ignorant about these things. Part of my education as a new European.

Interesting. 12V is a bit low for 3000W. Wonder why they didn’t want you to go to 24V

 

[MisterB1959]

There are a lot of battery suppliers in the US, but I'm doing a campervan build in France. As an American it's not so easy for me to buy batteries here and this is a huge purchase for me. I'd appreciate any help.

Through another thread I thought I wanted 3 or 4 12V 206Ah SOK Batteries, since these are available in Europe and were reviewed well on mobile-solarpower.com. But re-reading a post by @TacomaJoe got me concerned that these batteries might have poor current characteristics. Here they are:



If I understand right, it's the inverter that I need to be concerned about. I am looking at a Victron MultiPlus 12V 3000VA (or perhaps a 2000VA). I will have 900W on my van, and I'm going with 12V since I also want alternator charging (I drive a lot). I'm doing my best to "future proof" things.

In this video @Will Prowse reviews a 12V 400Ah Ampertime which can discharge at 250A. But he says that SOK are higher quality. So I'm trying to figure out what's more important. (By the way, I'm not bothered with the low temp issue -- this van is for full time living -- and I'll put in a switch).

I'd appreciate any advice on whether the above batteries will be a problem, and if so, what alternatives I could get here in France?

Thanks.

Where in France are you? If you can get over to the UK on a road trip and just happen to collect a battery from Fogstar near Birmingham, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
No one would be any the wiser especially if you install it/connect it up, while over here.
Lots of us in the UK use Fogstar batteries in our homes AND motorhomes, campers, RV's etc. Check out the Fogstar website, the prices are very competitive.
You could also check out MotorhomeFun forum .... Some on there have done or are doing what you want to ...

 

[Tony_]

Interesting. 12V is a bit low for 3000W. Wonder why they didn’t want you to go to 24V

I certainly considered going to 24V, and also considered getting a smaller Multiplus. But I made conscious decisions about both of these things after doing the best I could in my research. For example, I went with a larger one because I like to future-proof things as much as possible. It's nice to have extra capacity in case I'm going to need it, even if only a small percentage of the time. I will probably install switches so that the inverter is not using power when not needed.

I also considered traveling to the UK to get a battery. We all have our reasons for making the decisions we do.

 

[MisterB1959]

Interesting. 12V is a bit low for 3000W. Wonder why they didn’t want you to go to 24V

@Tony

i use a 3000w Renogy inverter off my 12v 304Ah Fogstar battery, its worked really well for the past 8 months. i previously tried smaller inverters, but they just didnt give me what i wanted, which was to be able to boil a kettle AND use the microwave (modified to low power) at the same time, with a bit of spare capacity.

i went for the Renogy because of the 'pass through' facility. i now use battery power for most of our cooking, air fryer, george foreman grill (for bbq), table top pizza oven (which is brilliant), crock pot and induction hob - the inverter and battery have been a good 'pairing'. Having the pass through means that i dont need to change things around when not hooked up on site or at home

i also fitted a large B2B (DC to DC) to replenish the battery as we drive, in case the solar cant keep us 'topped up' .....

 

[highwaypirate]

Edit: yea, if you can avoid it, don't go with PowerQueen

Uh oh... I'm running two of their 100AH Minis on separate PV systems. I did find, however, they aren't too bad of battery IF absorbtion is set no highter than 14.1V. PowerQueen, Redodo, LiTime (formerly AmpereTime) and the other rebranded batteries don't get a proper cell balancing; it makes it even harder to balance without bluetooth capabilities if your using pouch cells like my Minis. The biggest regret, though, is not getting larger enough capacity (I'm ordering their 300AH version this spring).

Tony_ the list of items you've posted I bet would make a very reliable system, props to you! I'd like to see how it all looks once everything has been installed.

 

[Tony_]

Tony_ the list of items you've posted I bet would make a very reliable system, props to you! I'd like to see how it all looks once everything has been installed.

@Pi Curio Since you asked, here is what it looks like. I've assembled it all just like this, but am still waiting for the battery to arrive -- hopefully this Monday.

 

[Pi Curio]

Uh oh... I'm running two of their 100AH Minis on separate PV systems. I did find, however, they aren't too bad of battery IF absorbtion is set no highter than 14.1V. PowerQueen, Redodo, LiTime (formerly AmpereTime) and the other rebranded batteries don't get a proper cell balancing; it makes it even harder to balance without bluetooth capabilities if your using pouch cells like my Minis. The biggest regret, though, is not getting larger enough capacity (I'm ordering their 300AH version this spring).

I had two of their 12V 100Ah batteries bought three months apart. They performed well, although the second one had cell balance issues from the get-go. No biggy, it only took a couple of cycles with prolonged absorption at a lower charge voltage to sort that out.

The shock followed after I decided to go up in voltage to 24V. The plan was to take these two apart and build a single 24V 100Ah by using the cell packs and adding a BT BMS.

Although the two batteries were the same make and model, I found out these two were two entirely different batteries. The cell brand, the wiring sizes, and the BMS were different.

Honestly, that was a deal breaker for me.

On the flip side, this just made me realize that DIY battery is the way to go for me, much sooner.

 

[Pi Curio]

@Pi Curio Since you asked, here is what it looks like. I've assembled it all just like this, but am still waiting for the battery to arrive -- hopefully this Monday.
View attachment 197554

Nice setup

Though, it was @highwaypirate asking, not me

 

[squowse]

I certainly considered going to 24V, and also considered getting a smaller Multiplus. But I made conscious decisions about both of these things after doing the best I could in my research. For example, I went with a larger one because I like to future-proof things as much as possible. It's nice to have extra capacity in case I'm going to need it, even if only a small percentage of the time. I will probably install switches so that the inverter is not using power when not needed.

I also considered traveling to the UK to get a battery. We all have our reasons for making the decisions we do.

The cabling for the 12/3000 is massive. That and the mppt aspect is why i would have advised 24V