Aims high voltage hybrid inverter.

[realpinochet]

Saw this on mikes channel today. Seems like vendors are catching onto the high voltage movement. Just wanted to share.

Battery Voltage Range(V)

80- 495

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[Lumberjack Engineering]

As someone with a Growatt MIN10000TL-XH-US that supports only Growatt's (very) expensive HV batteries, it'd be nice to see more HV batteries available!

 

[realpinochet]

As someone with a Growatt MIN10000TL-XH-US that supports only Growatt's (very) expensive HV batteries, it'd be nice to see more HV batteries available!

I contacted liberty battery and they said they can build HV batteries no problem, I think vendors are starting to see we're moving past 48V installs sooner rather than latter and it's about dam time as it makes so much more sense.

 

[realpinochet]

Sandi is building batteries now for their HV inverters.

https://www.sandielectric.com/battery-management-systems.html

 

[Shimmy]

Just a follow-up on the circuit breaker comment from the other thread; a "suitable" 100A breaker for up to 500VDC from Square D has a list price of $3,700, maybe half that real-world distributor net. It starts to make sense maybe over 250-400A, but then you are talking about 80kW and up.

 

[realpinochet]

Just a follow-up on the circuit breaker comment from the other thread; a "suitable" 100A breaker for up to 500VDC from Square D has a list price of $3,700, maybe half that real-world distributor net. It starts to make sense maybe over 250-400A, but then you are talking about 80kW and up.

There's much much cheaper ones than that...I can't remember the vendor off hand but they were din rail mounted and around $100 bucks up to 600V DC. I believe they were thermal delayed (trip curve) or whatever it's called.

Here's a example, I don't see the 600V anymore on there but I've seen it in the past. I was planning on being around 400-500V.

https://www.amazon.com/DIHOOL-Circuit-Breaker-Disconnect-Inverter/dp/B09P4RBHFW/ref=sxin_16_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.4a292f39-c27c-4e62-9abd-d68116d07607%3Aamzn1.sym.4a292f39-c27c-4e62-9abd-d68116d07607&cv_ct_cx=50%2Bamp%2Bdc%2Bbreaker&keywords=50%2Bamp%2Bdc%2Bbreaker&pd_rd_i=B09P4S7WTY&pd_rd_r=c3668c1f-6315-44ad-a8c1-8ef004091740&pd_rd_w=m1w4j&pd_rd_wg=vyc6G&pf_rd_p=4a292f39-c27c-4e62-9abd-d68116d07607&pf_rd_r=ZD7AJSNWMA43NPBFSMCA&qid=1690849282&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sr=1-3-2b34d040-5c83-4b7f-ba01-15975dfb8828-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1

How did you arrive at 100A? I'm not sure what Amperage would be needed and that should vary depending on the voltage. The higher the voltage the less amps it pulls which is why it's more efficient. It's the same principal of high power lines where they use 60,000V to transfer power so the amperage doesn't have to be high and heat up and destroy the lines. A battery vendor should provide this in the battery.

 

[Shimmy]

There's much much cheaper ones than that...I can't remember the vendor off hand but they were din rail mounted and around $100 bucks up to 600V DC. I believe they were thermal delayed (trip curve) or whatever it's called.

Your money, your life.

First issue is that you want at least a 3-pole breaker so you can break the midpoint of the string as well as the ends. 200VDC will still kill you, but there is at least half the energy behind it for fires.

Beyond that, do you think 1.5 orders of magnitude in price difference should set off some alarm bells? A PV circuit has a fault current of ~20A... a LFP bank has >~10,000A.

How did you arrive at 100A? I'm not sure what Amperage would be needed and that should vary depending on the voltage. The higher the voltage the less amps it pulls which is why it's more efficient. It's the same principal of high power lines where they use 60,000V to transfer power so the amperage doesn't have to be high and heat up and destroy the lines. A battery vendor should provide this in the battery.

Do you want to use a string of 1P125S 18650 cells?

To me, high current starts around 400A when you are talking about a battery bank; above that current you have a bunch of hassles you need to deal with and you do have added losses. Likewise, what do you think you would gain having a 20A DC bus at 400V? Personally, I think my lower threshold would be about 250A for a 400V system. Specific to my post though, the price of the breaker was the same for anything under 100A-- they are priced by frame size and not trip setting.

Now, the math changes when you are talking about a factory assembly; the added efficiency gains, smaller wire bending radii, and lower current power electronics make a difference. I think (but am not certain) that the way companies are doing UL boxes is to use power electronics for load break and use any switch as an isolator only. That isn't really a DIY-friendly approach for your home.

 

[realpinochet]

I think we agree to disagree on some of this. I believe the EV market is what's pushing vendors forward; in fact there was industry article I read not long ago that said HV was the future for the caveats I've already mentioned and some of the big key players were Schneider and Siemens. I think the Vendors can make the batteries, breakers etc safe. Decades ago when it was all 12V and somebody said hey lets move to 48V I assume there were people saying it was unsafe and had no benefit etc. Significantly reducing the amperage needed to power the same loads has lots of benefits including safety benefits.

 

[Shimmy]

I think we agree to disagree on some of this. I believe the EV market is what's pushing vendors forward; in fact there was industry article I read not long ago that said HV was the future for the caveats I've already mentioned and some of the big key players were Schneider and Siemens. I think the Vendors can make the batteries, breakers etc safe. Decades ago when it was all 12V and somebody said hey lets move to 48V I assume there were people saying it was unsafe and had no benefit etc. Significantly reducing the amperage needed to power the same loads has lots of benefits including safety benefits.

Can do... but remember that EVs play by very different rules than energy storage systems. The power electronics for 400-800V have been around for decades, and the protective systems are just fine for commercial/industrial installations. It just isn't the same market as residential (especially DIY), and the trends even in institutional settings is to make the high voltage DC part of an enclosed or modular system.

 

[realpinochet]

Can do... but remember that EVs play by very different rules than energy storage systems. The power electronics for 400-800V have been around for decades, and the protective systems are just fine for commercial/industrial installations. It just isn't the same market as residential (especially DIY), and the trends even in institutional settings is to make the high voltage DC part of an enclosed or modular system.

What I'm saying is the EV market and charging them is pushing for HV battery / inverters on the solar side.