New high power system USA

[woodzykiler]

So i have a small hybrid inverter for my garage, works great! 200ah 48v storage. (This is to show i have some knowledge about it)
NOTE: My house has 400amp service 200Amps on L1 and 200 amps on L2
Now im planning on doing the house on a hybrid system. We have a power monitor in the breaker pannel so we know what were useing and what to expect in terms of what we need. we do have a 24KW* instant water heater in the house. so thats a thing! (LOVE IT)
The highest amp spike we have seen around x-mas. L1 189 Amps L2 177 Amps. NOTE: The spikes where under 5 seconds, then chilled out to around 80-90 Amps steady.

We use on the normal according to a device in the breaker panel around 5-15 amps all day long
Here are some questions i had;
1. What inverter do i need?
2. Can they be in strings?
3. Can it support 48V Lipo?
4. Will they be able to support the Amp spikes?
5. Remote monitor and/or laptop 24/7 recording?
6. Be able to connect to server rack battery banks?

What is kinda required.
1. Being able to connect to the Service lines L1/L2 220V AC
1A. NO Backfeed. Hybrid inverter?
2. being able to have PV/Battery Bypass
3. Switching less then 10ms like a UPS
4. Able to handle upto 200Amps per L1/L2
5. 180 out of phase for the 220V
6. Ample to have L1 L2 N for outputs
7. Being able to support a 1,000AH 48v Battery bank

I have 6 40.1V 320W pannels on a duel axis post not plugged into anything. there just mounted atm.
Any pointers or suggestions for a high power setup?
I can split the 24KW kw* water heater to the mains if needed. rather not if possible
* I have ajusted the water heater down to 18kw after this was posted. 30 amp per L1/L2

 

[DIYrich]

Spike of 189 or 177 amps is about 45,000 watts.
Each sol-ark 15k is 12,000 watts off battery, so you will need to parallel 4 of them for each.

This assumes each "L" is 240v.

Might be able to get by with 3, but plan for 4, just in case. 3 eg4 18kpv may also work. Possibly 2 eg4.

 

[woodzykiler]

Spike of 189 or 177 amps is about 45,000 watts.
Each sol-ark 15k is 12,000 watts off battery, so you will need to parallel 4 of them for each.

This assumes each "L" is 240v.

Might be able to get by with 3, but plan for 4, just in case. 3 eg4 18kpv may also work. Possibly 2 eg4.

Each L is 120V. USA power split phase 180. USA is in the title

 

[Quattrohead]

If you plan on keeping the grid, then either split the water heater off the solar system or use the load assist feature that the EG4 18Kpv has to cope with it.
Seems like 2 parallel would work for you or perhaps look at 4 6000XP. Not sure if they have the same load assist but they do have impressive surge ratings.

 

[Hedges]

What is your objective, to power the house from PV and batteries when grid is down? Or to reduce power draw from the grid but leave it connected?

You could install a zero-export system, either with or without batteries. Let that huge surge come from grid. Supply some or all of the water heating power, reducing what is drawn from grid.

Water heating is likely a small part of your total electric load (in kWh that is, obviously big in kW!), so even if you hardly make a dent in it, you can still shave your bill considerably with a smaller system.

A water tank is cheaper energy storage than batteries. A modest size heating element is cheaper than an inverter to deliver 45kW or 20kW operating. I suggest a tank-type water heater. Ideally operated as a dump load, drawing power only when your battery is full or there is otherwise excess PV. Ideally we would have a continuously variable water heater (implementing zero export or controlled by battery charging system) but I don't think that's available as a product.

 

[ricardocello]

Now im planning on doing the house on a hybrid system.

Sounds like you want whole house backed up (400A service) like a UPS with no feed back to grid, with the chance to use solar to offset the grid/battery power, but never export. Right? Do you want/require full UL conformance, permits, inspections, etc.?

We have a power monitor in the breaker pannel so we know what were useing and what to expect in terms of what we need.

So getting an itemized list of your power consumption is critical. Everyone on this site tells you to do a proper power audit before designing, sounds like you've started. Make a list of 240V devices (water heaters, haves, pumps, etc.) and then do your 120V only loads. You may end up not backing up everything.

we do have a 24KW* instant water heater in the house. so thats a thing! (LOVE IT)

Convenient yes. For a battery system? That's 500A @ 48VDC just to support the water heater, not even accounting for conversion loss.
So you will end up sizing your inverters and batteries for that+everything else, and the size and $$ are going to go through the roof.
If you have the budget though, it can be done.

1. What inverter do i need?
2. Can they be in strings?

To get the level of current you want, you will almost certainly need to design with multiple parallel inverters for both legs, carefully keeping the AC and DC cables to similar lengths.

3. Can it support 48V Lipo?

Given your high current needs, a higher voltage DC system (up to 600V) and inverter may be right for you.
Search the forum for high-voltage DC batteries and inverters, but I don't think they are very DIY friendly.

What is kinda required.
1. Being able to connect to the Service lines L1/L2 220V AC

Lots of help on the forum for line-side taps, which is probably what you want to do here.

1A. NO Backfeed. Hybrid inverter?
2. being able to have PV/Battery Bypass
3. Switching less then 10ms like a UPS

My Victron's are < 20 msec and they never glitch anything in the house.
16.67 msec is one cycle of 60Hz AC.

 

[Brett V]

If you intend to power everything in the house off grid, you’re looking at a huge system! You mentioned 6 solar panels? I’m not sure 60 would be sufficient for your needs. Your first steps are to decide what critical loads you can’t live without and go from there.

 

[DIYrich]

Each L is 120V. USA power split phase 180. USA is in the title

You have 200 amp 240v split phase, which is typical in the USA. You will need 3 or 4 sol-ark 15k or EG4 18kpv to cover l1 and l2.

 

[woodzykiler]

If you plan on keeping the grid, then either split the water heater off the solar system or use the load assist feature that the EG4 18Kpv has to cope with it.
Seems like 2 parallel would work for you or perhaps look at 4 6000XP. Not sure if they have the same load assist but they do have impressive surge ratings.

Load assist , i didnt know this was a thing thank you!!

What is your objective, to power the house from PV and batteries when grid is down? Or to reduce power draw from the grid but leave it connected?

You could install a zero-export system, either with or without batteries. Let that huge surge come from grid. Supply some or all of the water heating power, reducing what is drawn from grid.

Water heating is likely a small part of your total electric load (in kWh that is, obviously big in kW!), so even if you hardly make a dent in it, you can still shave your bill considerably with a smaller system.

A water tank is cheaper energy storage than batteries. A modest size heating element is cheaper than an inverter to deliver 45kW or 20kW operating. I suggest a tank-type water heater. Ideally operated as a dump load, drawing power only when your battery is full or there is otherwise excess PV. Ideally we would have a continuously variable water heater (implementing zero export or controlled by battery charging system) but I don't think that's available as a product.

Yes id like the primary power be from the PV and batterys before the grid. and have zero export. We had a water tank, but it died.. and i had this from the last house sitting around so we used it :D.
excess PV should go to the batterys i would think? unless they also filled 1,000AH@48v

Sounds like you want whole house backed up (400A service) like a UPS with no feed back to grid, with the chance to use solar to offset the grid/battery power, but never export. Right? Do you want/require full UL conformance, permits, inspections, etc.?


So getting an itemized list of your power consumption is critical. Everyone on this site tells you to do a proper power audit before designing, sounds like you've started. Make a list of 240V devices (water heaters, haves, pumps, etc.) and then do your 120V only loads. You may end up not backing up everything.


Convenient yes. For a battery system? That's 500A @ 48VDC just to support the water heater, not even accounting for conversion loss.
So you will end up sizing your inverters and batteries for that+everything else, and the size and $$ are going to go through the roof.
If you have the budget though, it can be done.


To get the level of current you want, you will almost certainly need to design with multiple parallel inverters for both legs, carefully keeping the AC and DC cables to similar lengths.

Given your high current needs, a higher voltage DC system (up to 600V) and inverter may be right for you.
Search the forum for high-voltage DC batteries and inverters, but I don't think they are very DIY friendly.

Lots of help on the forum for line-side taps, which is probably what you want to do here.

My Victron's are < 20 msec and they never glitch anything in the house.
16.67 msec is one cycle of 60Hz AC.

i think we have 400amp service, 200 per leg i belive? the big one says 200 and has 2 switches with a bar holding them together.
Yes like a UPS no-backfeed useing PV and batterys to offset. UL/instpections are not required if there is no back feed.

this is true, we did think about sub-paneling the water heater

Higher voltage battery systems? ill have to take a look!

Ill take at look at the suggested inverter. Thank you!! this is very helpfull info

If you intend to power everything in the house off grid, you’re looking at a huge system! You mentioned 6 solar panels? I’m not sure 60 would be sufficient for your needs. Your first steps are to decide what critical loads you can’t live without and go from there.

not off-gird for say, but more of bill reducing. my panels can give me about 1,920W*40% OR 240.6V@320W*40% as there on a duel axis tracking stand. The goal is to get the PV and batterys to power the house till they cant any more, and only pull power from the grid USA East. on an ass needed basis

 

[DIYrich]

* I have ajusted the water heater down to 18kw after this was posted. 30 amp per L1/L2

The water heater was only 24kW of the 40kW max you wrote. What is the other 16kW?

You should consider moving to a heat pump water heater. Under ideal conditions, it uses 1/3 the power, and only draws 500 watts (2 amps vs 75 amps). Could get you down to 1 to 2 inverters.

 

[woodzykiler]

My Victron's are < 20 msec and they never glitch anything in the house.
16.67 msec is one cycle of 60Hz AC.

These seem REALLY NICE!
Can you suggest a unit for my ideal setup?

 

[woodzykiler]

The water heater was only 24kW of the 40kW max you wrote. What is the other 16kW?

You should consider moving to a heat pump water heater. Under ideal conditions, it uses 1/3 the power, and only draws 500 watts (2 amps vs 75 amps). Could get you down to 1 to 2 inverters.

we live in an old house, a heat pump anything really isnt an option sadly.. limited space down stairs the other 16wk was around x-mas, so x-mas lights, dual wall oven, electric glass cook top and tvs and coffee and tea maker and a bunch of other stuff being turned on with family at the house...
its not a year roudn requirement. just holidays. and want to have the ablity to handle it if needed

 

[DIYrich]

not off-gird for say, but more of bill reducing. my panels can give me about 1,920W*40% OR 240.6V@320W*40% as there on a duel axis tracking stand. The goal is to get the PV and batterys to power the house till they cant any more, and only pull power from the grid USA East. on an ass needed basis

Under ideal conditions, your panels output 2kW when the sun is bright. You wrote you draw 80 amps continous, that is 19kW. You are short 17kW while the sun is shining. Double that to recharge your batteries, maybe tripple.

 

[ricardocello]

These seem REALLY NICE!
Can you suggest a unit for my ideal setup?

I cannot recommend Victron for your use case, as they don't make their high power stuff for USA split phase, no UL, etc.
@DIYrich had the right idea with multiple sol-ark 15ks or EG4 18kpvs in parallel (assuming they support that).

 

[DIYrich]

we live in an old house, a heat pump anything really isnt an option sadly.. limited space down stairs

If you don’t have room for a heatpump water heater, you don't have room for the inverters and batteries.

 

[ricardocello]

i think we have 400amp service, 200 per leg i belive? the big one says 200 and has 2 switches with a bar holding them together.

That's just standard 200A service (you don't add the amps from L1 and L2).
The fact that you measured peaks over 175A on both legs means you really use some serious power.

 

[Hedges]

Yes id like the primary power be from the PV and batterys before the grid. and have zero export. We had a water tank, but it died.. and i had this from the last house sitting around so we used it :D.
excess PV should go to the batterys i would think? unless they also filled 1,000AH@48v

You didn't say you want battery backup when the grid is down.

Backup is convenient, for at least some critical or important loads.

You can put in any size zero-export PV system. You can add AC coupled battery storage (e.g. Tesla PowerWall or others.) The grid will still supply what is needed, but PV and battery will supply what they can, optionally charging battery from PV during low rates and supplying loads from battery during times of high electric rates.

There are a number of hybrids, e.g. SolArk, that could provide PV + battery backup for selected loads. With current transformer at utility meter, they can allow PV to backfeed the house while still doing zero export to grid. Should be able to backfeed house from battery too. This can be built as any size you want, and expanded in the future. Much easier than trying to supply instant hot water heater from battery.

 

[Brett V]

You didn't say you want battery backup when the grid is down.

Backup is convenient, for at least some critical or important loads.

You can put in any size zero-export PV system. You can add AC coupled battery storage (e.g. Tesla PowerWall or others.) The grid will still supply what is needed, but PV and battery will supply what they can, optionally charging battery from PV during low rates and supplying loads from battery during times of high electric rates.

There are a number of hybrids, e.g. SolArk, that could provide PV + battery backup for selected loads. With current transformer at utility meter, they can allow PV to backfeed the house while still doing zero export to grid. Should be able to backfeed house from battery too. This can be built as any size you want, and expanded in the future. Much easier than trying to supply instant hot water heater from battery.

The load for that instant hot water unit is why I suggested he's looking at a ridiculously large system.

 

[woodzykiler]

Under ideal conditions, your panels output 2kW when the sun is bright. You wrote you draw 80 amps continous, that is 19kW. You are short 17kW while the sun is shining. Double that to recharge your batteries, maybe tripple.

I mean we dont run the water heater 24/7 lol maybe for like a total of 1 hour per day for showers and stuff, also please read the rest of that it will make since.

The load for that instant hot water unit is why I suggested he's looking at a ridiculously large system.

I cannot recommend Victron for your use case, as they don't make their high power stuff for USA split phase, no UL, etc.
@DIYrich had the right idea with multiple sol-ark 15ks or EG4 18kpvs in parallel (assuming they support that).

Thank you!

If you don’t have room for a heatpump water heater, you don't have room for the inverters and batteries.

Is cause of the batterys/inverters there is no space left LOL

That's just standard 200A service (you don't add the amps from L1 and L2).
The fact that you measured peaks over 175A on both legs means you really use some serious power.

makes since, thank you! this will help make a better inverter choice

You didn't say you want battery backup when the grid is down.

Backup is convenient, for at least some critical or important loads.

You can put in any size zero-export PV system. You can add AC coupled battery storage (e.g. Tesla PowerWall or others.) The grid will still supply what is needed, but PV and battery will supply what they can, optionally charging battery from PV during low rates and supplying loads from battery during times of high electric rates.

There are a number of hybrids, e.g. SolArk, that could provide PV + battery backup for selected loads. With current transformer at utility meter, they can allow PV to backfeed the house while still doing zero export to grid. Should be able to backfeed house from battery too. This can be built as any size you want, and expanded in the future. Much easier than trying to supply instant hot water heater from battery.

Who wouldnt want battery backup "just in case"?
our rate doesnt change unless its a holiday then its a hold 0.10 cheaper..
I have seen some "chinese" inverters that are hybrids and cna work with the 120/240V split phase for the USA. But i wanted feedback before i get myself a nice toasty fire. At the end of the day, 0 Backfeed(a generator is connected with a main switch), PV+Battery usage first. extra PV to battery.

The load for that instant hot water unit is why I suggested he's looking at a ridiculously large system.

Yes this is true, but on a daily aspect, our avg usage is only (sitting here checking the metering device inside the main panel)
L1 is useing 8.44 Amps and L2 is useing 1.65 amps. This is our AVG usage 24/7.
Unless we turn on the coffee pot 5.3A, tea maker 4.1A, stove top 5-30A, Water heater L1 23A L2 16A. and space heaters that run about 10A each (we have 2) and some misc things that run a total of about 25 amps

 

[DIYrich]

I mean we dont run the water heater 24/7 lol maybe for like a total of 1 hour per day for showers and stuff

Under ideal conditions, the panels would produce enough energy to run your water heater for 30 to 45 minutes a day. More likely, 15 to 30 minutes on a good day.