diy solar

diy solar

New system pros and cons

edrivas411

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I am currently researching a new system for off grid. I like my long hot showers but will use a electric commercial tank water heater. I need continuous 200a output just in case as 4 teenagers in the house. I plan on wiring a 200a panel and a 100a subpanel. My question is what equipment is most reliable. Victon, Magnasine, Schneider, or lion energy? I have been looking at Victron with SOC batteries but calculations say I would need 5 10,000 inverters while lion energy would need 3. The cost would also be much greater with Victron. Victron has the advantage of being all seperates so any issue requires a part change while lion energy is all in one so very heavy to ship or repair. I would like to know others feed back on what they would choose and why?
 
Would recommend splitting your solar budget into 2 parts. One amount for a more efficient water heater like this one
https://www.hotwater.com/products/c...uct-line-sg100/cahp-120-100/cahp-120-100.html

Then spend the remainder on a slightly smaller inverter system. Start with 2 Sol-Ark 15K units or 2 EG4 18Kpv.
That ao smith unit was my first choice when looking at water heaters. It is a new design and currently is still having issues with it throwing codes that shut it off. The old school high energy usage units are reliable to a fault. The difference in cost pays a good amount of the additional inverter needed. The sol-ark and battery combo are an option but the pros and cons are what this discussion is about. The EG4 18k is new and cost less but reliability, ease of use, and most important to me, set and forget, are questions this discussion will help me finalize my decision.
 
I am currently researching a new system for off grid. I like my long hot showers but will use a electric commercial tank water heater. I need continuous 200a output just in case as 4 teenagers in the house.

200A 120/240VAC is an unreasonable system to build, for normal residential applications.
I have an unreasonable system capable of 100A 120/240VAC, but I cheaped out on batteries, can only sustain such power for 20 minutes. While the sun shines, it can sustain 40A, and about 60 minutes more without sun.

If your goal is continuous hot showers 24/7, determine how many gallons per minute you need, at what temperature, with input water at what temperature. That will directly convert into kWh/day.

You would need batteries able to supply that at night. More reasonable would be to put in enough storage water heaters to last though the night.

If it is only occasionally that you need 24 hours continuous hot water, use a gas or oil fired water heater. Use PV electric for reasonable loads.
 
This thread is for equipment not conservation. This system includes current needs and potential future needs (electric cars). Attempting to add new equipment to existing equipment in the future is not wanted even if it may be possible. That potential future headache definatly not wanted. I am looking for pros and cons on systems capable of continuos 200A. Thank you for the conservation options, but they have been thoroughly looked at and if possible, implemented. With a full Victron system, my ROI is about 6 years. Anything under 10 years at current SCE prices will be a win for me.
 
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You could make a 3-phase 120/208Y "multi-cluster" SMA Sunny Island system up to the 100 kW range.
You can parallel a number of SolArk, probably make a 120/240V split phase system the size you want. Maybe Schneider, too. I'm not sure how many can parallel.
Off-brands likely offer shorter break-even, but anticipate shorter lifespan too.
 
You could make a 3-phase 120/208Y "multi-cluster" SMA Sunny Island system up to the 100 kW range.
You can parallel a number of SolArk, probably make a 120/240V split phase system the size you want. Maybe Schneider, too. I'm not sure how many can parallel.
Off-brands likely offer shorter break-even, but anticipate shorter lifespan too.
3 phase sounds great but I am not familiar with using it so I would need electrician to repair all 3 phase equipment and or install. I do know 3 phase is much more efficient especially in those large load appliances. I am just not comfortable with 3 phase. I have not thought about SMA but you also mentioned other brands. What models and pros and cons on those? I have seen videos on how good and reliable a product is but the programming is a nightmare. Software issues that shut down systems. Reliability from hardware to software is key. I want to set it up and only glance at it occasionally to update or general maintenance. I currently have a small 12v system with magnasine inverter and victron everything else. It has been extremely reliable. The magnasine has had its issues but for the most part reliable. Victron had a bad charge controller but customer service was great and no issues since.
 
If off-grid, one of the elements of keeping a system running as long and as well as the grid folks is to have a backup generator.

This kicks in, manually or automatically, to refill the batteries in scenarios where solar is running short (extended bad weather, etc.). It can also serve the purpose of carrying any "high-wattage" loads. Many of the LF inverters have options for calling upon backup generators, either for refill or for heavy loads, and their settings control the interaction. You should be able to get at the manuals for each inverter, and see what your options are.

In effect, you don't have to build out a farm of inverters to carry a few high-wattage loads, you can have the generator automatically come on and carry them for you.

Magnum's "magnasine" inverters also parallel, although I only have a single LF unit, which has gone beyond it's 5-yr warranty and is still running strong. It has never had a problem carrying a heavy load, and I just have the one unit. My battery-bank also has high-output BMS boards in the batteries. But, I also rely on the backup generator, propane in my case, with a site fuel tank feeding the gen. I just fire it up with a remote-start fob, if anticipating a heavy load. Many inverters/generators can have this interaction be fully automatic.

The generator is there for backup reasons, so we are as reliable as the grid ... but it doesn't have to sit idle, either.

Hope this helps ...
 
3 phase sounds great but I am not familiar with using it so I would need electrician to repair all 3 phase equipment and or install. I do know 3 phase is much more efficient especially in those large load appliances. I am just not comfortable with 3 phase.

3-phase is distributed by the utility company, and two legs stepped down with transformers to 120/240V split phase (L1 and L2 each 120V and 180 degrees out of phase with each other for 240V) for residential neighborhoods.

Often apartment and condo complexes are fed 120/208Y 3-phase. Each unit is wired inside just like 120/240V but fed with L1 and L2 each 120V and 120 degrees out of phase with each other for 208V. A 240V heating element would draw 208/240 = 0.87 times as much current for 0.87^2 = 0.75 times as much power. A motor would draw 240/208 = 1.15 times as much current for same power. Most such appliances mention both voltages on nameplate.

The difference is you can wire 3-phase motors as well, and those perform better that split-phase motors.

And, you do NOT want to cause a short that draws an arc across all three exposed L1/L2/L3. Instead of self extinguishing in 1/120th of a second when voltage drops to zero, it can continue longer, causing a bad sunburn. Fed by 3-phase grid with near unlimited power, that can be severe plus cause an electric explosion. Inverter power of course is limited.

The reason I suggested 3-phase is that each Sunny Island cluster (with battery) is limited to 18kW or 24kW, but multiple can be ganged together to reach your 48kW goal. (A single split-phase or 3-phase cluster together with PV inverters could deliver 48kW and more while the sun shines, just not off battery.)

I have not thought about SMA but you also mentioned other brands. What models and pros and cons on those? I have seen videos on how good and reliable a product is but the programming is a nightmare. Software issues that shut down systems.

Other people here talk about software updates. I operate all my SMA equipment straight out of the box with the firmware that came from factory, never needed updates. Those are available, e.g. to connect a lithium BMS to a 15 year old inverter which predates the market. Same architecture and able to run same firmware as those sold today.

SolArk is a relatively expensive US branded model highly similar to less expensive Deye and others sold overseas. (but economical compared to retail price of an SMA or Schneider system, and all in one box.) It has different software, also US support, both of which users are quite happy with. It's hardware may have evolved a bit, customized at request of SolArk. There has been discussion about whether/how much SolArk was involved in its design, and the foreign models derived from it vs. the other way around. It supports parallel for more watts, or 3-phase. It is a high-frequency inverter, supports AC coupling with grid-tie PV inverters although reportedly that doesn't work as nicely as low-frequency inverters can do it.

Schneider is the evolution of Trace (who they acquired), a low-frequency design from several decades ago. Now supporting grid tie etc.

The designers of Trace designed earlier Outback inverters. Now are at Midnight, where they have introduced Midnight Rosie, a high-frequency inverter which looks very capable. Less than one year on the market but we expect it to be very good. Midnight was also working on a hot-swappable bank of inverters and charge controllers.

I don't have experience with any except SMA, but all of the above reportedly work well. Support of time-shifting for grid-tied use, and support of AC coupling, would vary.

Reliability from hardware to software is key. I want to set it up and only glance at it occasionally to update or general maintenance. I currently have a small 12v system with magnasine inverter and victron everything else. It has been extremely reliable. The magnasine has had its issues but for the most part reliable. Victron had a bad charge controller but customer service was great and no issues since.

I operated up to five SMA SWR2500U over 17 years, had two failures, calculate 32 years MTBF.
I now operate a number of Sunny Island and newer model Sunny Boy, 3 years and no failures.
Used to have 5 year warranty, then 20 year for Sunny Boy and 10 year on Sunny Island optional to 20 year. Sunny Boy Smart Energy warranted for 25 years (that would be the new Sunny Boy PV inverter. It has optional battery, but not to build a system larger than about 10kW.)

People report using Trace for something like 30 or 40 years.
 
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3-phase is distributed by the utility company, and two legs stepped down with transformers to 120/240V split phase (L1 and L2 each 120V and 180 degrees out of phase with each other for 240V) for residential neighborhoods.

Often apartment and condo complexes are fed 120/208Y 3-phase. Each unit is wired inside just like 120/240V but fed with L1 and L2 each 120V and 120 degrees out of phase with each other for 208V. A 240V heating element would draw 208/240 = 0.87 times as much current for 0.87^2 = 0.75 times as much power. A motor would draw 240/208 = 1.15 times as much current for same power. Most such appliances mention both voltages on nameplate.

The difference is you can wire 3-phase motors as well, and those perform better that split-phase motors.

And, you do NOT want to cause a short that draws an arc across all three exposed L1/L2/L3. Instead of self extinguishing in 1/120th of a second when voltage drops to zero, it can continue longer, causing a bad sunburn. Fed by 3-phase grid with near unlimited power, that can be severe plus cause an electric explosion. Inverter power of course is limited.

The reason I suggested 3-phase is that each Sunny Island cluster (with battery) is limited to 18kW or 24kW, but multiple can be ganged together to reach your 48kW goal. (A single split-phase or 3-phase cluster together with PV inverters could deliver 48kW and more while the sun shines, just not off battery.)



Other people here talk about software updates. I operate all my SMA equipment straight out of the box with the firmware that came from factory, never needed updates. Those are available, e.g. to connect a lithium BMS to a 15 year old inverter which predates the market. Same architecture and able to run same firmware as those sold today.

SolArk is a relatively expensive US branded model highly similar to less expensive Deye and others sold overseas. (but economical compared to retail price of an SMA or Schneider system, and all in one box.) It has different software, also US support, both of which users are quite happy with. It's hardware may have evolved a bit, customized at request of SolArk. There has been discussion about whether/how much SolArk was involved in its design, and the foreign models derived from it vs. the other way around. It supports parallel for more watts, or 3-phase. It is a high-frequency inverter, supports AC coupling with grid-tie PV inverters although reportedly that doesn't work as nicely as low-frequency inverters can do it.

Schneider is the evolution of Trace (who they acquired), a low-frequency design from several decades ago. Now supporting grid tie etc.

The designers of Trace designed earlier Outback inverters. Now are at Midnight, where they have introduced Midnight Rosie, a high-frequency inverter which looks very capable. Less than one year on the market but we expect it to be very good. Midnight was also working on a hot-swappable bank of inverters and charge controllers.

I don't have experience with any except SMA, but all of the above reportedly work well. Support of time-shifting for grid-tied use, and support of AC coupling, would vary.



I operated up to five SMA SWR2500U over 17 years, had two failures, calculate 32 years MTBF.
I now operate a number of Sunny Island and newer model Sunny Boy, 3 years and no failures.
Used to have 5 year warranty, then 20 year for Sunny Boy and 10 year on Sunny Island optional to 20 year. Sunny Boy Smart Energy warranted for 25 years (that would be the new Sunny Boy PV inverter. It has optional battery, but not to build a system larger than about 10kW.)

People report using Trace for something like 30 or 40 years.
I am looking to see if they will work for my application. 20 years is great reliability. I did look hard at Schneider. I do not know the ease of the software but reliability seems good. The 600/100 I like for less strings with smaller gauge. I only wish they would do a 600/200 for less charge controllers. The Victron I am familiar with but learning the battery BMS intake would be crucial to fully charge the batteries without destroying them. The high voltage on both those charge controllers will allow for long distance runs with low loss. The inverters do scare me in that initial programming is not beginners friendly. One day there will be gui that walks you through programming. In my view the programming is currently in the older VCR clock programming days. Out of the box working with minimal programming is ideal. I look forward to more responses that give me options.
 
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600/200 meaning 10kW or so?
There are 10kW GT PV inverters that take 600VDC, and especially older models can be had cheap. Good for AC coupled systems, and they add to AC power available for daytime loads like A/C.

I found Sunny Island quick configuration easy, trivial, just answer questions. Select grid or generator, max AC input current, 3-phase or split-phase with 2 or 4 inverters. FLA or AGM or external lithium BMS. Tweak cell voltages according to my AGM battery technical manual.

Because my battery back is undersize vs. recommendation based on PV inverter capacity, I also reduced charge rate from default (would have been 0.6C) to 0.2C by going through menus.

There are configurable signaling relays, but I only use master inverter relay #2 for it's default setting, load-shed at 70% DoD.
 
600/200 meaning 10kW or so?
There are 10kW GT PV inverters that take 600VDC, and especially older models can be had cheap. Good for AC coupled systems, and they add to AC power available for daytime loads like A/C.

I found Sunny Island quick configuration easy, trivial, just answer questions. Select grid or generator, max AC input current, 3-phase or split-phase with 2 or 4 inverters. FLA or AGM or external lithium BMS. Tweak cell voltages according to my AGM battery technical manual.

Because my battery back is undersize vs. recommendation based on PV inverter capacity, I also reduced charge rate from default (would have been 0.6C) to 0.2C by going through menus.

There are configurable signaling relays, but I only use master inverter relay #2 for it's default setting, load-shed at 70% DoD.
The victron 450v 200A charge controller is great. It accepts 450v input with up to 200A output at 48v. Schneider has a 600v input with up to 100A output at 48v. The all in one units concern me as more can go wrong. The inverters you mentioned I am looking at them to see if they fit my application.
 
I'm hoping Sunny Boy Smart Energy will play nice for AC coupling while also charging/discharging its connected battery.

7.7kW (AC inverter) model available in January, accepts 15kW PV and has 10kW HV bidirectional battery charger. The 11.5kW, 22kV PV, 10kW battery version is due end of next year.

I would use this on Sunny Island with AGM battery, and SBSE with lithium battery would keep that at float plus augment available AC power 24 hours a day. SMA hasn't clarified how it will work with Sunny Island, all we know is Rule-21 etc. as required for grid tie.

For others, SBSE would be their backup system without Sunny Island. (backup capability not yet announced.)

[Edit: Here's preliminary data sheet for backup. Says 30 second 125% surge. I would expect cost to be $2500 for the additional box, same as ABU for SBS]

 
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That brochure was very helpful and it looks like it will do just the same as the Victron Quatro. I would need at least 5 in series just like the Victron. I will be looking at price and compatibility to my situation. Thank You.
 
I doubt SBSE will support multiple units being paralleled as grid-forming battery inverters.
But as slaves to the grid, or to a battery inverter supporting AC coupling, they shouldn't know or care.

It is SI that can parallel up to 4, or multi-cluster for more. However multi-cluster will be expensive (additional price of multi-cluster box.)
If you want higher wattage off-grid, at night, a different brand would support bigger systems. Like several Sol-Ark paralleled. Not sure how many Schneider are supported.
 
I doubt SBSE will support multiple units being paralleled as grid-forming battery inverters.
But as slaves to the grid, or to a battery inverter supporting AC coupling, they shouldn't know or care.

It is SI that can parallel up to 4, or multi-cluster for more. However multi-cluster will be expensive (additional price of multi-cluster box.)
If you want higher wattage off-grid, at night, a different brand would support bigger systems. Like several Sol-Ark paralleled. Not sure how many Schneider are supported.
According to the document you posted, The new ones are going to but will be out in Q4 2024. The documents show up to 8 can be connected together.
 
I am currently researching a new system for off grid. I like my long hot showers but will use a electric commercial tank water heater. I need continuous 200a output just in case as 4 teenagers in the house. I plan on wiring a 200a panel and a 100a subpanel. My question is what equipment is most reliable. Victon, Magnasine, Schneider, or lion energy? I have been looking at Victron with SOC batteries but calculations say I would need 5 10,000 inverters while lion energy would need 3. The cost would also be much greater with Victron. Victron has the advantage of being all seperates so any issue requires a part change while lion energy is all in one so very heavy to ship or repair. I would like to know others feed back on what they would choose and why?

If I were building a new high-amp system, I might look at the new EG4 18kpv, I have some seat time with one on a neighbor's new system (a minor install issue I'm working through now with a silly trip issue related to old firmware, bad setting, or a grounding problem with the installation), but so far I'm liking the system, they look pretty robust, and are stackable to meet large amp loads. They are based on the LuxpowerTek inverter design, rebranded as EG4. These have a 10-year warranty. EG4 also has a new wall-battery offering (280Ah) that goes nice with this inverter when you put the EG4 trough box in between them. I assume when you stack them wider, can put another wall battery under each inverter, and connect all the troughs together or just install your own really wide cable trough.

I also might look at the Schneider XW Pro inverter systems, they look decently solid, as far as I know they are stackable. These have a 5-year warranty.

Then there's also the SolArk 15k a lot of people like. These have a 10-year warranty.

With parallel stacking at least I know the first and last inverters I mentioned above could parallel stack much wider than the 200a you need, so it is just a matter of adding more inverters wide when you need more power. So just leave plenty of wall space for expansion if needed.
 
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If I were building a new high-amp system, I might look at the new EG4 18kpv, I have some seat time with one on a neighbor's new system (a minor install issue I'm working through now with a silly trip issue related to old firmware, bad setting, or a grounding problem with the installation), but so far I'm liking the system, they look pretty robust, and are stackable to meet large amp loads. They are based on the LuxpowerTek inverter design, rebranded as EG4. These have a 10-year warranty. EG4 also has a new wall-battery offering (280Ah) that goes nice with this inverter when you put the EG4 trough box in between them. I assume when you stack them wider, can put another wall battery under each inverter, and connect all the troughs together or just install your own really wide cable trough.

I also might look at the Schneider XW Pro inverter systems, they look decently solid, as far as I know they are stackable. These have a 5-year warranty.

Then there's also the SolArk 15k a lot of people like. These have a 10-year warranty.

With parallel stacking at least I know the first and last inverters I mentioned above could parallel stack much wider than the 200a you need, so it is just a matter of adding more inverters wide when you need more power. So just leave plenty of wall space for expansion if needed.
I have looked at all of them and the EG4 was a thought but without the time test, it is not exactly sitting at he top of the list. The Schneider I have a great deal of thought into that one as they also have significant addons through so many products. The SolArk is also in there but it is not as high up on the list as the schneider and the Victron as both are time tested. I opened this thread for exactly this to see experience to include the pros and cons that people have had in using them. I have watched many videos over the last few months and now its time to see what this community has to offer as to experience.
Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I need this feed back to understand more about what I see on the videos.
 
I have looked at all of them and the EG4 was a thought but without the time test, it is not exactly sitting at he top of the list. The Schneider I have a great deal of thought into that one as they also have significant addons through so many products. The SolArk is also in there but it is not as high up on the list as the schneider and the Victron as both are time tested. I opened this thread for exactly this to see experience to include the pros and cons that people have had in using them. I have watched many videos over the last few months and now its time to see what this community has to offer as to experience.
Thank you for letting me know about your experience. I need this feed back to understand more about what I see on the videos.

Did you see the You Tube video of the guy who does the XW Pro vs SolArk side by side comparison yet?

Also, on the EG4 one, my personal experience, is I can't speak to it on all accounts, as I've been in the middle of a troubleshooting issue where an RV hookup is tripping one of the inverters (maybe ground or GFCI issue), but I did not install the inverter, and I've found a bunch of installation issues, like no ground rod, a bad setting or two need to change, and firmware upgrade might help I'm being told.

But without that RV plugged in, it seems to run pretty awesome. I guess LuxpowerTek has been around awhile, but EG4 does sometimes tend to make custom mods to the templates they get from a lot of these manufacturers that set them apart to some extent from the original.

Usually improvements, but sometimes, firmware growing pains seem to exist for a bit, but all the manufacturers seem to have the same problem as well until they get the kinks ironed out.

But in my opinion, the 10-year warranty says a lot about the product (I guess logically), when others are 5 year or only 3-year..
 
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Did you see the You Tube video of the guy who does the XW Pro vs SolArk side by side comparison yet?

Also, on the EG4 one, my personal experience, is I can't speak to it on all accounts, as I've been in the middle of a troubleshooting issue where an RV hookup is tripping one of the inverters (maybe ground or GFCI issue), but I did not install the inverter, and I've found a bunch of installation issues, like no ground rod, a bad setting or two need to change, and firmware upgrade might help I'm being told.

But without that RV plugged in, it seems to run pretty awesome. I guess LuxpowerTek has been around awhile, but EG4 does sometimes tend to make custom mods to the templates they get from a lot of these manufacturers that set them apart to some extent from the original.

Usually improvements, but sometimes, firmware growing pains seem to exist for a bit, but all the manufacturers seem to have the same problem as well until they get the kinks ironed out.

But in my opinion, the 10-year warranty says a lot about the product (I guess logically), when others are 5 year or only 3-year..
DavidPoz did a video like that and I did see a few from another youtuber from England. I also watched ElectricianU to see why certain things did not seem correct.
 
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