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An Off grid AIO I would like to see.

Mattb4

Solar Wizard
Joined
Jul 15, 2022
Messages
4,399
Location
NW AR
It would be nice to see a Split phase 24vDC AIO that would handle 5-6kW. There are several on the market that give you 120vAC at 3kW but not much innovation in them is happening since the emphasis is now on 48vDC offerings. 24vDC is becoming the red haired step child of the PV world though it has decent power for lower demand situations that Off grid and mobile customers encounter. Being lower voltage it is also a bit safer to deal with.

While I am designing the best possible Off grid AIO that has GAB (Grid as backup) here are some of my wants.

The split phase AIO must accept power from most generators. If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will.
The AIO will have 2 SCC MPPT inputs with max Voc of 450v and provide 120a charging.
Quality terminals will be used for connecting up input and output from the AIO.
Programming and settings offered will be geared towards Off grid use. There will be the ability to set time of grid (or generator, perhaps via autostart) usage as well as the typical operational modes.
Manual will show how to wire and setup AIO for proper NG bonds.
Off grid certification from a recognized testing lab such as UL.

Oh yes, it will not cost an arm and a leg.

How about other Off grid users? What would you really like to see offered in an Off grid AIO to meet your needs?
 
Sounds good to me, although I'd rather jump on the 48v bandwagon. Going 24v was my main regret building my system.

I particularly like your idea of being able to charge from 120v and still putting out 240v. Right now I'm achieving this with a stand alone charger.
 
So 12a per leg or 3Kw per leg and a 6000xp? I think the 6000xp is kinda the sweet spot for small split phase, although definitely being able to recharge from a 120v generator would be nice since the jumper trick form the 5048 doesn't seem to work.

I'd like to see more options for 12v AIO's. 1Kw is too small for most things and there is only 1 company I've found that has 2Kw and 3Kw units which are all LF and pricy! If a 6Kw can take 120a from the batteries and be considered a "small" system, why can't we have 12v 1500w or 2Kw AIO's?

Off grid needs to be able to update firmware via USB/PC interface. Requiring an online account and/or an app is stupid for an off-grid system.

Remote control panel! A fully functional one that can be mounted!

Big passive heat sinks and/or a larger diameter/slower fan. Small off grid systems don't always have a power room far away to silence them.

While a 450v PVInput would be nice, I went with the Growatt and one of the considerations was the lower starting voltage. Getting to 150+ volts of starting power for a 30v charger is really difficult. 40v would make a 4s string of bog standard 100w panels would be a lot handier.

Oh, and NO COMMUNICATIONS REQUIRED!!! (I'm looking at you EG4 and your indoor battery/6000xp requirements!)
 
...

While a 450v PVInput would be nice, I went with the Growatt and one of the considerations was the lower starting voltage. Getting to 150+ volts of starting power for a 30v charger is really difficult. 40v would make a 4s string of bog standard 100w panels would be a lot handier.
Yes, for small off grid setups a lower PV Voc of perhaps 150v would be good. The older ones of only 100v Voc were a bit limiting even with RV style panels. 6-100w panels at 22v than could than be series connected.
 
It would be nice to see a Split phase 24vDC AIO that would handle 5-6kW. There are several on the market that give you 120vAC at 3kW but not much innovation in them is happening since the emphasis is now on 48vDC offerings. 24vDC is becoming the red haired step child of the PV world though it has decent power for lower demand situations that Off grid and mobile customers encounter. Being lower voltage it is also a bit safer to deal with.

While I am designing the best possible Off grid AIO that has GAB (Grid as backup) here are some of my wants.

The split phase AIO must accept power from most generators. If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will.
The AIO will have 2 SCC MPPT inputs with max Voc of 450v and provide 120a charging.
Quality terminals will be used for connecting up input and output from the AIO.
Programming and settings offered will be geared towards Off grid use. There will be the ability to set time of grid (or generator, perhaps via autostart) usage as well as the typical operational modes.
Manual will show how to wire and setup AIO for proper NG bonds.
Off grid certification from a recognized testing lab such as UL.

Oh yes, it will not cost an arm and a leg.

How about other Off grid users? What would you really like to see offered in an Off grid AIO to meet your needs?
I've recently installed a 12V Victron Phoenix 1200W inverter in my work trailer. It is LF and believe me when I say you want LF with a small inverter. Monitoring kVa I see the surge when turning anything on.

At 1500W per leg, I think you will find the surge will trip the inverter. You would be better served with 120V and 3000W.
 
I've recently installed a 12V Victron Phoenix 1200W inverter in my work trailer. It is LF and believe me when I say you want LF with a small inverter. Monitoring kVa I see the surge when turning anything on.

At 1500W per leg, I think you will find the surge will trip the inverter. You would be better served with 120V and 3000W.
I have been running HF in the AIO's I have been using without problem with startup surge for things. I suspect it is because 3000w (6000w surge) provides a good leeway for normal 120vAC plug in items. I also suspect that many folks fail to provide a suitable DC connection with plenty of battery capacity and the subsequent voltage slump under load catches them.
 
I have been running HF in the AIO's I have been using without problem with startup surge for things. I suspect it is because 3000w (6000w surge) provides a good leeway for normal 120vAC plug in items. I also suspect that many folks fail to provide a suitable DC connection with plenty of battery capacity and the subsequent voltage slump under load catches them.
I do know given a choice now I would have gone 24V or 48V but this serves the purpose at this point. If 24V or 48V, it would have probably been a slightly larger inverter. I don't know how people get by with a 12V system, once "you have held the power" of a higher battery voltage, it is hard to go back.
 
Spotted a company selling some split phase AIO units that operate off 24vDC. https://store.tumo-int.com/ They have one at 2kW and another at 3kW. Never heard of them before but they seem to have a line up of wind turbines, various SCC with MPPT, Inverter chargers, hybrid AIO and grid tie units.

Would like to see a higher 24vDC model in split phase than 3kW myself since that would limit each leg to 1500w. But it could be a possibility for someone needing a combination 120/240vAC output. I have no idea of quality or anything so it will be interesting if anyone out there buys and test these units out.

1715105064252.png
 
A lot of these can be daisy chained or combined. My MPP LV2424's can be linked either in split phase 240v, single phase 120v, or single phase 240v, at 50 or 60hz. Stack as many as you want to get the output you need. I don't remember if it was 9 units per phase, or 9 units total. Lot of extra wiring and expense to get there, though.
 
It would be nice to see a Split phase 24vDC AIO that would handle 5-6kW. There are several on the market that give you 120vAC at 3kW but not much innovation in them is happening since the emphasis is now on 48vDC offerings. 24vDC is becoming the red haired step child of the PV world though it has decent power for lower demand situations that Off grid and mobile customers encounter. Being lower voltage it is also a bit safer to deal with.

While I am designing the best possible Off grid AIO that has GAB (Grid as backup) here are some of my wants.

The split phase AIO must accept power from most generators. If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will.
The AIO will have 2 SCC MPPT inputs with max Voc of 450v and provide 120a charging.
Quality terminals will be used for connecting up input and output from the AIO.
Programming and settings offered will be geared towards Off grid use. There will be the ability to set time of grid (or generator, perhaps via autostart) usage as well as the typical operational modes.
Manual will show how to wire and setup AIO for proper NG bonds.
Off grid certification from a recognized testing lab such as UL.


Oh yes, it will not cost an arm and a leg.

You don't want much do you? :)
How about other Off grid users? What would you really like to see offered in an Off grid AIO to meet your needs?

This will get you an inverter that can run off 24V. Can accept 120V or 240V input automatically. No charge controller and not cheap. But it will do want you want for an inverter. It is UL rated according to the certificates on the website. It will only output 120V but will charge the battery with 120V or 240V as you requested. I can assure you it will give proper instruction on N-G bonding, the company is quite clear about it in my experience. You can parallel units down the road if your needs change.

Like I said, it is an inverter/charger. You will have to supply an MPPT. But it covers all the bases you want, 3kVA output with 5.5kVA surge. Good unit, a little pricey but these are not normal features you want such as the 120/240V input. It is a perfect fit for what you want. By now you are probably wondering what inverter is this? Add in a MPPT and you will have the need met. Did I mention it comes with a 10 year warranty? 10 years is a long time in the solar world. It comes with great support too. I don't think you will find support much better. It is right here. https://www.currentconnected.com/pr...DItOZxnIxZJNamR51PHbLHQ7ne27EDywB4BO_s4y7TipY Buy it from Dexter, it will be at your doorstep in a few days. And you get the extended warranty.
 
Ack! Victron. Only cost you your first born child (heck with arm and leg costs). Being an old solitaire, that never reproduced, I lack the necessary child.
 
Ack! Victron. Only cost you your first born child (heck with arm and leg costs). Being an old solitaire, that never reproduced, I lack the necessary child.
The thing is, it does what you want. Except for the MPPT.

I should have bought a Multiplus instead of the Phoenix.
 
The thing is, it does what you want. Except for the MPPT.

I should have bought a Multiplus instead of the Phoenix.
The Growatt 3000 24v does it all, AND the MPPT, AND is half the price.

The Ionic 3kw does it all on 12v, AND the MPPT, AND is LF for heavy loads, AND is 30% less.

Not gonna find any Smurf Fanboys on a thread like this. 😝
 
The thing is, it does what you want. Except for the MPPT.

I should have bought a Multiplus instead of the Phoenix.
It doesn't do what I want. Victron, while fine equipment, lacks the features I mentioned in my first post. It is only split phase when you combine 2. It has no integrated SCC's, no control panel on unit for settings and is lacking off grid certification.
 
The Growatt 3000 24v does it all, AND the MPPT, AND is half the price.

I own one, it doesn't take in 240V or pass thru power on 2 legs. Certainly doesn't have 450VOC rating.

There are other things it doesn't do the OP wanted/required.

The Ionic 3kw does it all on 12v, AND the MPPT, AND is LF for heavy loads, AND is 30% less.

Which inverter is this? I don't need an MPPT but 12V, 3Kw and LF would work in an application I have.
Not gonna find any Smurf Fanboys on a thread like this. 😝
You don't get much sarcasm out on the boat, do you? Must be a long cruise. :ROFLMAO:
 
It doesn't do what I want. Victron, while fine equipment, lacks the features I mentioned in my first post. It is only split phase when you combine 2.

You wrote if output is 120V (inverter power) it could still input 240V and pass it thru, which this unit will. "If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will."
It has no integrated SCC's, no control panel on unit for settings and is lacking off grid certification.
Well I did say you would have to source a MPPT.

An old phone can be taped on the front using the app, there is your screen. :ROFLMAO:

I looked on Victron site and it does have some UL certs.

If you want a unicorn, you have to either make it yourself or have it custom built.
 
You wrote if output is 120V (inverter power) it could still input 240V and pass it thru, which this unit will. "If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will."

...
Uh no..
The split phase AIO must accept power from most generators. If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will.
The input to the AIO from a 120vAC source would work to charge from is the gist of my request. If a 240vAC input was available it would work normally.

I agree it is a Unicorn until someone makes it. My thread here is a shout out to the void to see if any Solar inverter company is listening.
 
Which inverter is this? I don't need an MPPT but 12V, 3Kw and LF would work in an application I have.
I put the 2Kw version of the Ionic AIO in my camper, they also sell a 3Kw version. I like it a lot and it does about everything I ask for. I just wish it would do more charging from the 120v because 35a isn't much for 560Ah worth of batteries.

so trade a niece or nephew... barring that grab a rando off the street and barter!:ROFLMAO:
Nope, the requirements are "First Born Child" so the nephew isn't going to work. However, it doesn't have to be YOUR first born child, so that annoying neighbor kid with the pimped out Honda Civic just got a bit more interesting. :sneaky:

The input to the AIO from a 120vAC source would work to charge from is the gist of my request. If a 240vAC input was available it would work normally.
There were some units like the MPP-5048 that you could put a jumper between the L1 and L2 input and charge the batteries from a 120v source, but I understand that feature isn't working in the newer units. I don't know what the output from that would do though, Will found out about it in his video on that unit and the BigBattery.

You don't get much sarcasm out on the boat, do you? Must be a long cruise. :ROFLMAO:
Nope. I love being cut off from the world for 6+ months at a time, limited internet access, questionable food, no days off, and the same 20 faces every single day plus the normal corporate BS that everyone has to deal with.

I'm that "special" kind of crazy. 😁
 

24v 3kw Split phase and 3 phase, up to 9 units Parallel, 250voc 80 mppt. I saw this awhile ago and thought it was pretty cool, but aside from that, couldn't find out anything around here. They seem to have some accessories available for their eco system too.
Edit: obviously doesn't fit your "wishes and requirements", but it does have remote removable display panel similar to lv6548. Looks like a voltronics product, but hard to tell.
 
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Nope, the requirements are "First Born Child" so the nephew isn't going to work. However, it doesn't have to be YOUR first born child, so that annoying neighbor kid with the pimped out Honda Civic just got a bit more interesting. :sneaky:

I'm that "special" kind of crazy. 😁

There we go... Thats the spirit! 🦡🦡🦡 . We Improvise, Adapt! Overcome!
 
Schneider SW4024 has no MPPT charger but puts out 120 and 240. If you input a 120 volt genny it will charge the batteries. If you put a very large load on it the 120 volt genny output will be split between the 2 legs and added to the inverter output for a 240 volt output greater than the inverter alone. It's a low frequency inverter so lots of surge for a relatively long time. Very high quality.

Downside is it requires a separate control panel to access all but the basic settings. It needs a separate charge controller for the panels. It requires that you sacrifice a virgin in addition to your first born.
 
Schneider made good equipment but they seem stuck in the 80's and 90's when it comes to innovation.
 
Not quite apples to apples, but ...

Magnum & affiliates have (always had) a 4024 "pre-wired unit" consisting of: ms4024pae, midnite solar 150, and pre-wired base, all connected together. This is what I put up on the wall of my utility shed almost 10 years ago now, when we built off-grid. It was AIO-like, in that I had a 4kw, LF, 240v capable unit, pre-wired. All I had to do was feed everything (panels, generator, house loads) into it. This was way before the AIO's came out, and the majority of them were pretty much HF.

I believe this combination is still available, and also in 48v (ms4048pae), and others (including midnite solar) have all kinds of interesting variations, like this:

MNEMS4024PAEACCPL_dual_web.jpg
If and when my existing 4024 finally dies (and I don't see it happening anytime soon with the LF componentry), I'm hoping I can just buy another. It's amazing to me, given others' difficulties in getting things powered up, that this unit of mine feeds the whole house, and runs everything we throw against it. I've never had to service mine, it is so rock-solid.

Only thing that might make me change away from another pre-wired magnum is if Midnite Solar finally comes out with their other offering of an AIO (field serviceable) system, discussed in the thread on this site with over 49 pages, at last count. When I went digging for research material on that, there was a nifty trade show pic with a bunch of these units on a wall, all seemingly plug-n-play.
 
The Magnum has one of the best manuals I have ever reviewed. Too bad that the unit is hobbled by lack of on device control/readout panel and battery selection types. It is another High class unit that seems to be stuck in the past (I notice the Manual was copyrighted for 2016). It could use some spruce up, accessible voltage settings, time programing and higher wattage output.
 
The Magnum has one of the best manuals I have ever reviewed. Too bad that the unit is hobbled by lack of on device control/readout panel and battery selection types. It is another High class unit that seems to be stuck in the past (I notice the Manual was copyrighted for 2016). It could use some spruce up, accessible voltage settings, time programing and higher wattage output.
it has those if you use the ARTR instead of the lower level monitors. you can go in and set up a custom charge profile for batteries. its what I did and I have zero issues with it charging off of a genset.

Edit: time programming for incoming power use and genset operation. not for feedback as it was designed for off grid to begin with. though if you use the magnum string inverters it could tie in/control them through frequency shifting.

In as far as the manual goes, there are times it is too in-depth for a beginning DIYer. trust me, 12 years ago I was scratching my grape more than once while reading it and trying to set it up initially.
 
I could see not having on device control if an Off grid inverter had a standard Ethernet connection that allowed any computer to access with a Browser. I suppose some folks would want it to also have WiFi access. The last thing it should require is special (not available to the public just approved installers) passwords to get at any of the settings. Nor should it need Internet access to work.

Locked down devices and Off grid does not mix well.
 
I could see not having on device control if an Off grid inverter had a standard Ethernet connection that allowed any computer to access with a Browser. I suppose some folks would want it to also have WiFi access. The last thing it should require is special (not available to the public just approved installers) passwords to get at any of the settings. Nor should it need Internet access to work.

Locked down devices and Off grid does not mix well.
you can do internet connection as well I forget what the module was called but they have an interface for that as well.
 
you can do internet connection as well I forget what the module was called but they have an interface for that as well.
I may have worded my post in a way that could be misconstrued.

"The last thing it should require is special (not available to the public just approved installers) passwords to get at any of the settings. Nor should it need Internet access to work."

This was meant to say no freaking hidden passwords to access features and also no internet connection required. A lot of things nowadays require you to be internet connected to work and not all of us have a high speed connection nor a lot of bandwidth to allow devices that need this to function. A couple years back there was supposedly this great security camera for low costs. I thought it would work by connecting to my computer but instead it needed a connection to the Internet to be able to than allow my computer to view it from the internet. Completely worthless to me. Perhaps to those that are viewing things online remotely it makes sense.

Many new devices use the "Cloud" to perform things and you access them with a phone App or from your computer. This is not the same as accessing your routers settings via your browser where no internet connection is needed. That is what I meant for a AIO Ethernet setup.
 
I may have worded my post in a way that could be misconstrued.

"The last thing it should require is special (not available to the public just approved installers) passwords to get at any of the settings. Nor should it need Internet access to work."

This was meant to say no freaking hidden passwords to access features and also no internet connection required. A lot of things nowadays require you to be internet connected to work and not all of us have a high speed connection nor a lot of bandwidth to allow devices that need this to function. A couple years back there was supposedly this great security camera for low costs. I thought it would work by connecting to my computer but instead it needed a connection to the Internet to be able to than allow my computer to view it from the internet. Completely worthless to me. Perhaps to those that are viewing things online remotely it makes sense.

Many new devices use the "Cloud" to perform things and you access them with a phone App or from your computer. This is not the same as accessing your routers settings via your browser where no internet connection is needed. That is what I meant for a AIO Ethernet setup.
Gotcha! Like the Neely 5 amp balancers, no gps connection on my cell phone, no ability to access…
 
Gotcha! Like the Neely 5 amp balancers, no gps connection on my cell phone, no ability to access…
It's something to do with location permissions and Bluetooth. Because Bluetooth could ping other nearby devices and give away your location. Apparently there is a way to code an app to query an android API called Companion Device Manager instead, so you don't have to give location permissions to Victron connect etc in the latest versions of the app and os.



Screenshot_20240513_064626_Chrome.jpg
 
It's something to do with location permissions and Bluetooth. Because Bluetooth could ping other nearby devices and give away your location. Apparently there is a way to code an app to query an android API called Companion Device Manager instead, so you don't have to give location permissions to Victron connect etc in the latest versions of the app and os.



View attachment 215058
the sad part is, I would gladly let them know where i am its just that the batteries, and the neely units are in a container which is itself makes up the first floor and has a second metal skin over it, so zero cell phone reception and if the cell has no reception the neely goes into this shyte bullshit where its GPS light blinks off and on and tells you to fuck off. I bought 4 of these damned things with the thought of one for each pack and a spare....
 
the sad part is, I would gladly let them know where i am its just that the batteries, and the neely units are in a container which is itself makes up the first floor and has a second metal skin over it, so zero cell phone reception and if the cell has no reception the neely goes into this shyte bullshit where its GPS light blinks off and on and tells you to fuck off. I bought 4 of these damned things with the thought of one for each pack and a spare....
That really is f###ed up on Neely's part.
 
It would be nice to see a Split phase 24vDC AIO that would handle 5-6kW. There are several on the market that give you 120vAC at 3kW but not much innovation in them is happening since the emphasis is now on 48vDC offerings. 24vDC is becoming the red haired step child of the PV world though it has decent power for lower demand situations that Off grid and mobile customers encounter. Being lower voltage it is also a bit safer to deal with.

While I am designing the best possible Off grid AIO that has GAB (Grid as backup) here are some of my wants.

The split phase AIO must accept power from most generators. If it is only 120vAC it will still charge batteries but not pass through to loads but 240vAC input will.
The AIO will have 2 SCC MPPT inputs with max Voc of 450v and provide 120a charging.
Quality terminals will be used for connecting up input and output from the AIO.
Programming and settings offered will be geared towards Off grid use. There will be the ability to set time of grid (or generator, perhaps via autostart) usage as well as the typical operational modes.
Manual will show how to wire and setup AIO for proper NG bonds.
Off grid certification from a recognized testing lab such as UL.

Oh yes, it will not cost an arm and a leg.

How about other Off grid users? What would you really like to see offered in an Off grid AIO to meet your needs?
In the DIY spirit, why not make your own pre-wired panel?

I do this often for customers and actually prefer it over AIO units. I did one sort of like you described using a 6K Aims split phase UL listed inverter charger, a Midnite Classic 150 MPPT and a pair of IOTA DLS 27-40's. The Aims unit already has a 240v charger built in (probably the most accepting generator tolerances I've seen with volts/hertz) and if you want to charge with 120v you can use the IOTA chargers (also accept almost any power). Then the possibilities are endless with charge controller options. You can lay it all out on a sheet of 3/4 and wire it up in an afternoon using quality breakers, boxes, fuses, gen plugs and whatever else you deem necessary. When you're all done it will be exactly what you want and probably more reliable.

Cost is the only thing that will be the issue, but you control that. You can go cheap or expensive with each part based on what you decide. Giving the reigns to some Chinese CEO to make these decisions based only on cost while building an AIO will likely be a disappointment. If they make the wrong choice you end up throwing the entire unit away when it goes up in smoke. Building your own is more forgiving, you can change out a failed component easily.
 
In the DIY spirit, why not make your own pre-wired panel?

I do this often for customers and actually prefer it over AIO units....
The problem is integration. Victron is good at that if you work within their ecosystem. Your customers may or may not prefer it because they may not know any different other than you provide a first class install and great working system for them.
 
The problem is integration. Victron is good at that if you work within their ecosystem. Your customers may or may not prefer it because they may not know any different other than you provide a first class install and great working system for them.
Sure, this method requires some manual switching and some direct monitoring, but for off grid, at the end of the day the CC really doesn't need to communicate with the Inverter and so on, other than for a nifty screen full of data. A key component may be getting a MPPT with AGS capability, or an inverter charger with built in transfer switch, but that's up to you as how much automation you want.

Internet monitoring and communications seem to be the source of most people's problems/faults/user error. The off-grid folks tend to stay away from them for that reason. Simplicity = reliability in my book

As to your post here, If I were to get an AIO unit, one feature that would be the selling point for me is generator control functionality. I still like the old Magnum standalone gen controls because they are simple, they could be set to come on a certain batt voltage and run for X hours and shut off. I haven't seen an AIO unit that was generator friendly.
 
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