another dreaded alternator charge lithium thread

[Jasgeer]

Here is an example of using a separate alternator for charging a Lithium battery (when the voltage needs to be different). I have seen many others. Many diesel trucks come from the factory with dual alternators and it is generally possible to separate them into two charging systems.

Adding a 2nd Alternator for Direct Lithium Battery Charging

Lithium Battery & Solar Setup My camper battery is a 24V nominal system of 35 Nissan leaf battery packs. Each pack contains 4 cells of Lithium Manganese Nickel Oxide (LMO) chemistry. They are a…

workingonexploring.com

 

[noenegdod]

>>> wanting to charge house batts while driving as quick as possible so can 1) reduce drag on alternator; thus improving mpg on this big CAT engine.

This is pointless unless you actually have limited time to charge. The drag on the alternator is in proportion to the amount of current it is providing. If you are pulling 60 amps for 2 hours vs 120 for 1, the total fuel you will consume will be, rough and dirty about the same. It will likely be less efficient drawing the higher current as the alternator will be less efficient producing its max current than it would be at half load.

 

[coachgeo]

This is pointless unless you actually have limited time to charge. The drag on the alternator is in proportion to the amount of current it is providing. If you are pulling 60 amps for 2 hours vs 120 for 1, the total fuel you will consume will be, rough and dirty about the same. It will likely be less efficient drawing the higher current as the alternator will be less efficient producing its max current than it would be at half load.

yes and no........ if you look at the alts draw from the engine only... yes, you are right..... but no if you increase the amount of time in the drive/trip you can then use the solar that was freed up by alternator to run hho system that increases fuel mileage for a longer time period of the trip. Obviously there is a point of no return..... where a shorter trip after alternator topped up batts....... didn't allow for enough hho production to offset the draw the alternator charge used to top off the batts. I can live with that because hho has another quality..... it cleans combustion chambers.... thus improves life of engine....... and that saves funds... which is the overall goal.

 

[noenegdod]

yes and no........ if you look at the alts draw from the engine only... yes, you are right..... but no if you increase the amount of time in the drive/trip you can then use the solar that was freed up by alternator to run hho system that increases fuel mileage for a longer time period of the trip. Obviously there is a point of no return..... where a shorter trip after alternator topped up batts....... didn't allow for enough hho production to offset the draw the alternator charge used to top off the batts. I can live with that because hho has another quality..... it cleans combustion chambers.... thus improves life of engine....... and that saves funds... which is the overall goal.

Im not going to argue with someone that believes in hho.........

 

[coachgeo]

Im not going to argue with someone that believes in hho.........

your lost in the "feeeeeeling" against hho and forgetting entirely WHY hho is is considered unrealistic........

the energy needed to create the electrical output to split the water..... in normal hho set up (alternator produces the electricity.. but alternator puts a draw on the engine) this negates any energy input the hho adds too engine combustion...... it is a total wash thus no benefit. Actually worse than a wash; cause realistically it can take MORE power- (alternator work {thus engine draw}) in production of the electrical energy needed to make the HHO, than the power gains hho gives you in return. So overall common goal of improving the combustion of the primary fuel for mpg gain; can/will never happen.....and likely your mpg will do down not up. This is what gave smart people a bad taste on hho and rightly so

what some who think they are smart slide into though is a "dumb mode" by not getting past that feeeeeeeeling/bad taste. Keeps them from realizing there is other ways besides using an alternator to produce the needed electricity.... aka... SOLAR which brings hho back closer to being a benefit.... esp. when recognizing that mpg is NOT the only benefit.

A large diesel engine replacement like mine; by time you add labor is 10 to 20 grand.......... the hho can extend its life and/or reduce costly maintenance procedures via cleaner combustion by many many thousands of miles/dollars...... that is a huge cost savings over time. Now- Ifff the hho can; up the mpg a tad in a way this is NOT using something that draws power from the engine.. or something that is already drawing from the engine.... but your not capturing the energy that something could produces.... then...... you add back more benefit.... and that is my goal. I might not reach it.... but trying to is more liable to help me at least reach the goal of extending engine life and reducing engine wear.

Since .... there is no chance will NOT have solar on the roof(s) of my rig (main rig and possibly tow rig as well).... that create wind drag..... and since this solar; if planned correctly*, can aid in the production of the hho..... might as well capture panel output to use for hho production instead of just letting the panels "only" drag down the rig. In short.... panels are up there..... might as well use them to my benefit once batts are topped up.


*actually panel placement done smartly can also aid in reducing wind drag by improving aerodynamic of the brick shaped camper and same on the tow rig behind via smoothing out wind turbulence/drag. a double win in this scenario.

 

[coachgeo]

PS- back to alternator charging lithium

 

[noenegdod]

your lost in the "feeeeeeling" against hho and forgetting entirely WHY hho is is considered unrealistic........

the energy needed to create the electrical output to split the water..... in normal hho set up (alternator produces the electricity.. but alternator puts a draw on the engine) this negates any energy input the hho adds too engine combustion...... it is a total wash thus no benefit. Actually worse than a wash; cause realistically it can take MORE power- (alternator work {thus engine draw}) in production of the electrical energy needed to make the HHO, than the power gains hho gives you in return. So overall common goal of improving the combustion of the primary fuel for mpg gain; can/will never happen.....and likely your mpg will do down not up. This is what gave smart people a bad taste on hho and rightly so

what some who think they are smart slide into though is a "dumb mode" by not getting past that feeeeeeeeling/bad taste. Keeps them from realizing there is other ways besides using an alternator to produce the needed electricity.... aka... SOLAR which brings hho back closer to being a benefit.... esp. when recognizing that mpg is NOT the only benefit.

A large diesel engine replacement like mine; by time you add labor is 10 to 20 grand.......... the hho can extend its life and/or reduce costly maintenance procedures via cleaner combustion by many many thousands of miles/dollars...... that is a huge cost savings over time. Now- Ifff the hho can; up the mpg a tad in a way this is NOT using something that draws power from the engine.. or something that is already drawing from the engine.... but your not capturing the energy that something could produces.... then...... you add back more benefit.... and that is my goal. I might not reach it.... but trying to is more liable to help me at least reach the goal of extending engine life and reducing engine wear.

Since .... there is no chance will NOT have solar on the roof(s) of my rig (main rig and possibly tow rig as well).... that create wind drag..... and since this solar; if planned correctly*, can aid in the production of the hho..... might as well capture panel output to use for hho production instead of just letting the panels "only" drag down the rig. In short.... panels are up there..... might as well use them to my benefit once batts are topped up.


*actually panel placement done smartly can also aid in reducing wind drag by improving aerodynamic of the brick shaped camper and same on the tow rig behind via smoothing out wind turbulence/drag. a double win in this scenario.

I have no feeeeeeling against HHO and I dont bite on attempts to call me out on emotions. The only reason I am replying again is because apparently I forgot to unsubscribe so I got a notification and you are attempting to provide a thought through arguement.

• Any benefits you can come up with for it have a simpler, cheaper and more effective solution therefor using it is the low intelligence band aid relegated to the conspiracy bin along with the 100mpg carburetor that was bought by an oil company and tossed in the bin.
• I really dont care if you have solar panels or not. HHO is a se your solar panels to power your vehicles power system and eliminate the parasitic drag of the alternator all together. Have excess solar? Install a motor where the alternator was. Substantially greater return than breaking water down and burning it again.

Want to increase your ICE longevity? There are a dozen ways to accomplish this. (not an exhaustive list but a good start)

1. Eliminate you EGR. Big improvement. Run you PCV through a big catch can before it returns to the intake or better yet, vent it to atmosphere. Both of these will make the environmentalists scream but SFW.
2. Install a propane system. Propane is a much better fuel than diesel. Diesel is very difficult to burn well and especially difficult to burn "clean" (ask VW and anyone else who was promoting it as "clean") Diesel is a garbage fuel but makes a good spark plug in a compression ignition engine when you are fueling it to large extent with propane.
3. Want to use water for something? Mix it with methanol and spray it in the intake. Way better off than using it for electrolysis.

The list goes on.

Unwatched for sure this time

 

[coachgeo]

lol.... cancel culture..."if you don't think like me"..... "I won't even have a conversation with you"

note: who says am not planning any of those alternative mpg aids too. they all have benefits.... yet each is most beneficial and different points in combustion.. or load on engine....

Got LP on board already.... with engine heat scavenged to assist in heating of house water.... then the typical LP volume used for cooking/water heating can be instead used for cooking/fumigating for improved drive engine combustion. That level of needed LP volume is reduced more when sun has been out and made electrically based cooking more logical. Realistically LP is best used for mpg/power gains at higher loads on engine such as on long highway upgrades or overtaking another slower vehicle). To use it more often the LP tank volume needed gets way too large; along with becoming bit more dangerous to carry. That brings forth more regulations (thus cost) to deal with as tank size increases. Thus sticking with typical RV volumes is best. Also with such large volume ... then going to a LNG system is more logical..... not worth it unless you can find a used certified system.

Will also use Methanol/water fumigation as you mentioned as an option which is less costly than LP in some places.. but harder to find methanol for this to be used; yet both are in the plan. This is not my first rodeo... But you won't know that..... I'm canceled hahaha.

Life is is all in the balance..... and that goes for getting the most and cleanest combustion too.

ok.. and now using your term... Im "really" saying back to alternator charging.

 

[coachgeo]

back to alternator charging 24v.

to save time when reviewing prior to offering some input....... feel free to just skip posts 21-28.... they're a distraction / hijack of the thread that offers no value to the topic. Thanks. Look forward to your input.. some great input in here so far.

 

[Jasgeer]

Looking forward to some comments on post 21 as it is relevant to my situation.

 

[coachgeo]

Looking forward to some comments on post 21 as it is relevant to my situation.

actually hijacking threads is a bit frowned upon in the discussion board/forum world*... and rightly so.. your topic is worthy of its own thread.. and not relevant enough to this thread. Moderator should honestly delete your post thru post 28. this whole thread jumped track starting at your post... (not that you jumped it from the track... but it did help push it to the side and encourage another to take the jump IMHO)

*coming from the mindset of a moderator / admin. of boards for over 30yrs

 

[coachgeo]

Moderator/admin please delete post 21 thru 28, they hijacked the conversation. Moving 21 to its own thread is logical option though.. he has some good questions.

 

[eXodus]

Here is an example of using a separate alternator for charging a Lithium battery (when the voltage needs to be different). I have seen many others. Many diesel trucks come from the factory with dual alternators and it is generally possible to separate them into two charging systems.

Adding a 2nd Alternator for Direct Lithium Battery Charging

Lithium Battery & Solar Setup My camper battery is a 24V nominal system of 35 Nissan leaf battery packs. Each pack contains 4 cells of Lithium Manganese Nickel Oxide (LMO) chemistry. They are a…

workingonexploring.com

I'm still not sure that connecting a alternator designed for Lead- to a lithium battery is a wise idea.

The alternator was designed with certain specifications of a lead battery in mind. A battery is many things in a circuit:
- resistance
- impedance
- reactance
- capacitor

What is battery impedance?

Battery impedance is a combination of internal resistance and reactance where internal resistance + reactance, or (L+ C), equals impedance when using an ac stimulus.

www.fluke.com

Like I said earlier - an Alternator is not producing DC - it's a pulsating AC halfwave.

Sean's Jaguar Tech Pages - Diagnosing your Alternator with a DVM or Scope

Only when you hook it to a lead battery - its smoothed to DC.

Caution after this sentence: WILD SPECULATION:
Lead is lazy and slow - while lithium is fast and responsive. The lead is not following the alternator because the chemical reaction is so slow.
While lithium potential - runs up and down with the pulses of the alternator.

So here is the issue - when the alternator is at 11V - the battery is potential going from charging to discharging - lead doesn't do that - because it's too slow. Maybe that's one reason why a lithium is burning up alternators - the alternator actually has a resistance - when the voltage of that is lower then the lithium battery - power flows the other way around? About 1/4 - 1/3 of the time the alternator halfwave is below the battery voltage.

 

[Jasgeer]

Victron does not have a problem with a alternator charging lithium as long as parameters are met: https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2019/10/07/careful-alternator-charging-lithium/

Installing a High Powered Alternator? - Victron Energy

Recently we heard how Stefanie fitted Lithium batteries and renewed the electrical system on board her yacht Taku Moe. She soon found that her old alternator wasn’t packing a big enough punch for her new batteries – and wasn’t surprised. Here she tells us her experience of installing a...

www.victronenergy.com

Remember that both Lithium and Lead Acid batteries are chemical systems. The output of a MPPT or DC-DC Charger is similarly pulses.

 

[eXodus]

Remember that both Lithium and Lead Acid batteries are chemical systems. The output of a MPPT or DC-DC Charger is similarly pulses.

yes, but with lithium also having characteristics of a capacitor - lot's of juice available in a very short period. While those DC chargers also got a PWM signal that's usually a pretty high frequency, I thought most of those are in the many khz ranges - 30-60 khz ?
While an alternator runs at what 1800rpm? at idle? /60s is like 30hz * 3 phases - 90hz.

You are correct the signal looks similar - but you have a frequency difference in the order magnitudes.

 

[Jasgeer]

I agree that the frequency domains are different. The pulley on an alternator is always much smaller than at the crank and the alternator is 3-phase, but it is still obviously much slower than a switcher.

Also, the output of a alternator cannot support current flow in the opposite direction because of the 3-phase full wave rectifier diodes. Likewise a switcher does not 'sink' current.

Attached is a person using their alternator to charge Lithium batteries.

 

[eXodus]

Also, the output of a alternator cannot support current flow in the opposite direction because of the 3-phase full wave rectifier diodes. Likewise a switcher does not 'sink' current.

I forgot about those- yeah the diodes prevent going back in a circuit. You are right.

Attached is a person using their alternator to charge Lithium batteries.

I'm all for direct Alternator charging - I don't like the DC2DC things.

My dream would be 24v or 48V alternator which could directly charge a Lithium bank in an hour or two.
Yet 24V alternators are expensive and 48V are practically non existing.

I make due with what I got and that's massive 12V alternators which in parallel with lead batteries are charging lithium pretty well.

 

[coachgeo]

Great input folk...... keep it up... after we hash out the possibilities... and why they work; we will move on (in a new thread) to solve the next world problem

seriously.... much thanks... look forward to more comments on this alternator. vs lithium

 

[wholybee]

There are two ways an alternator can be damaged by Lithium. Both are well known and documented by technicians that work on Lithium systems on boats, which seem to more commonly convert to Lithium. Depending on the specifics of your installation, they may or not be any problem at all.

The first, is simply overheating the Alternator by running it at it's limit, or even exceeding it, for long periods of time. This isn't even specific to Lithium, as a Large 1000Ah AGM bank will do the same thing. Many new alternators have a built in temperature sensor and will reduce output before they overheat. Maybe I am going out a a limb, but any modem quality alternator probably does. So this may be a non-issue. Coachgeo mentions his alternator has this. If you do not have a temp sensor, the common solution is to use a DCDC charger to limit current low enough the alternator cannot overheat. It's probably better to just upgrade the alternator.

The second is what happens when the BMS suddenly disconnects while the Alternator is running at a high output. A surge of hundreds of volts can be created, which can both damage the alternator, and all sorts of other stuff in the electrical system. First, it needs to be understood that this is not a normal occurrence. Set up correctly, the BMS should not disconnect, charging should stop first. But even if charging doesn't stop and the BMS disconnects, the Alternator shouldn't be making full output at the top of the charge when the BMS disconnects. The real damage happens when the BMS disconnects when the battery is not fully charged, so the alternator is making a lot of current when it disconnects. This should be really rare, even if things are not setup properly.

There are 3 ways to address the second issue, if you think the BMS might disconnect at an inopportune time. Parallel a lead acid battery, use a DCDC charger, or use a sterling battery protect. All three are really insurance, you should ideally not need any of them.

Boaters really worry about this issues, as there are often $10k of navigation electronics involved, and the unlikely event could be life threatening in the middle of an ocean crossing, not to mention very expensive. For a "land yacht" use your best judgement.

The talk about pulsating unfiltered DC is nonsense. There are 3 phases of AC being rectified. As one phase is decreasing in voltage, another is increasing. So, while there is a measurable ripple, it is not "pulsating DC" as the output never reaches near zero. If the alternator is outputting 24V, the ripple should only be a few volts in an extreme case. Likely it is less than 1 volt.

 

[Sabre36]

I'm still not sure that connecting a alternator designed for Lead- to a lithium battery is a wise idea.

The alternator was designed with certain specifications of a lead battery in mind. A battery is many things in a circuit:
- resistance
- impedance
- reactance
- capacitor

What is battery impedance?

Battery impedance is a combination of internal resistance and reactance where internal resistance + reactance, or (L+ C), equals impedance when using an ac stimulus.

www.fluke.com

Like I said earlier - an Alternator is not producing DC - it's a pulsating AC halfwave.

View attachment 53834

Sean's Jaguar Tech Pages - Diagnosing your Alternator with a DVM or Scope

Only when you hook it to a lead battery - its smoothed to DC.

Caution after this sentence: WILD SPECULATION:
Lead is lazy and slow - while lithium is fast and responsive. The lead is not following the alternator because the chemical reaction is so slow.
While lithium potential - runs up and down with the pulses of the alternator.

So here is the issue - when the alternator is at 11V - the battery is potential going from charging to discharging - lead doesn't do that - because it's too slow. Maybe that's one reason why a lithium is burning up alternators - the alternator actually has a resistance - when the voltage of that is lower then the lithium battery - power flows the other way around? About 1/4 - 1/3 of the time the alternator halfwave is below the battery voltage.

Been charging a 400Ah LFP bank since 2010, primarily with an alternator (marine application), at roughly .4C. When capacity tested the bank & cells individually all still exceed the 400Ah rating. This is after more than 2000 cycles, most of which have been to 80% DoD +/-...

My buddy Stan has over 50,000 nm under his keel since building his CALB bank back in 2011. His only source of charging is an alternator (no solar at all as he is the most record holding / setting sailor in the history of the sport). Last time we spoke his bank too still exceeds the original CALB spec for Ah capacity.