Anybody own a diesel PHEV in the USA?

[Checkthisout]

I think its obvious.
The flexibility of having a plug in option to charge overnight to save on fuel (and use the battery for short errands during the day)
while at the same time
having the flexibility for gas engine to recharge the battery so that the car maintains is full hybrid drive for more power/having the battery topped off during highway cruise.

That's exactly what it does.

 

[D71]

What point are you trying to make?

Why do you care if you can charge the battery off the engine or not?

Yes, this allows for increased range if only fuel is available I.E. fill up the fuel tank, charge the battery to 80% then go and and top off the fuel tank again.

Yet, what the hell is the point of buying a plug-in hybrid and never plugging it in?

You have the option - life is about options. Some ppl want to plug charge the standard phev same with prime from their solar. The prime gives options other standard phev don’t. Take it up with Toyota and video content providers if you don’t like their info.

My choice was gasoline Rav4 xle awd - basic transportation. Saved ~$20,000 vs Prime. Life is about choices. Cheaper vehicle means insurance is cheaper and only contend with maintenance cost for ice.

With any hybrid if the systems are not working together then you are hauling negative dead weight and will have the eventual cost of both systems as another negative. The onboard charger extends range and eliminate charge down time for the long trips for prime but at a cost. Nothing is free. Just my opinion. Again the Prime - mode select is stated “unique.“

 

[Crowz]

The rav4 prime will charge the battery to 80% with the engine. This can be done driving or at idle.

 

[aenyc]

That's exactly what it does.

Not any of the high power BMW PHEV's or any others (Volvo, MB, etc)
The only one that seems to do it is the RAV4 Prime.

 

[Checkthisout]

You have the option - life is about options. Some ppl want to plug charge the standard phev same with prime from their solar. The prime gives options other standard phev don’t. Take it up with Toyota and video content providers if you don’t like their info.

So you guys are mad you can't fully recharge the battery off the gas engine? I'm still lost.

My choice was gasoline Rav4 xle awd - basic transportation. Saved ~$20,000 vs Prime. Life is about choices. Cheaper vehicle means insurance is cheaper and only contend with maintenance cost for ice.

You made a good choice but depending on gas prices, the Hybrid only takes a few years to pay for itself for the $3500.00 premium but if the prime is $20k more then yikes.....yeah what are they thinking.

With any hybrid if the systems are not working together then you are hauling negative dead weight and will have the eventual cost of both systems as another negative. The onboard charger extends range and eliminate charge down time for the long trips for prime but at a cost. Nothing is free. Just my opinion. Again the Prime - mode select is stated “unique.“

Yeah it's dumb. It's akin to a larger fuel tank but grossly cuts into your MPG to recharge the battery off the engine without the engine driving the car.

 

[Checkthisout]

The rav4 prime will charge the battery to 80% with the engine. This can be done driving or at idle.

Correct.

 

[Checkthisout]

Not any of the high power BMW PHEV's or any others (Volvo, MB, etc)
The only one that seems to do it is the RAV4 Prime.

Yeah and why? To extend range maybe but with a gross reduction in MPG to that which is less than an ICE only vehicle.

 

[aenyc]

Yeah and why? To extend range maybe but with a gross reduction in MPG to that which is less than an ICE only vehicle.

RAV4 prime does not seem to imply that there is a gross reduction.
The flexibility of this is priceless to me (And almost everyone I know).
Requiring these BMW/MB/Volvo/Audi to be plugged in to charge (as well as the fact that its a LIO battery) is the reason i (and many others i know) will never consider these vehicles.
RAV4 Prime is a nice concept if you like RAV4 platform. High fives to Toyota - I want to see this on a sedan/SUV with a powerful V6 coupled with LFP battery.

 

[Checkthisout]

RAV4 prime does not seem to imply that there is a gross reduction.

Ok, so lets say the battery is at 20%. You charge it to 80% using the engine. You then drive in electric only and deplete the battery back down to 20%.

Are you following?

You'll get about 22MPG out of whatever fuel you had to burn to charge the battery up to 80%.

The flexibility of this is priceless to me (And almost everyone I know).
Requiring these BMW/MB/Volvo/Audi to be plugged in to charge (as well as the fact that its a LIO battery) is the reason i (and many others i know) will never consider these vehicles.
RAV4 Prime is a nice concept if you like RAV4 platform. High fives to Toyota - I want to see this on a sedan/SUV with a powerful V6 coupled with LFP battery.

Why do you care if you can charge it up off the engine or not? In what way does it increase flexibility and better suit your needs?

I'm going to read up on their operation a bit more but I don't see why you would care if they do or not?

 

[D71]

Correct.

most of the charging schemes is 80% for a charge figure with ev. Then they talk about to 100%. Just my notice.

Yeah and why? To extend range maybe but with a gross reduction in MPG to that which is less than an ICE only vehicle.

stop being a “paste paint chipper”. Your words.

This allows both modes. Hybrid and ev suffer on free ways. Best time to probably select the prime battery charge mode - when gas engine gets its’ best mileage on the hwy . Running charge mode on prime in city will be worse mileage. They did not give the specs in video.

Ever seen a freight diesel locomotive with a drive shaft to the wheels? They tried to run some transfer trucks - rail runner style to move freight cars but didn’t work out. Not enough ass and tractive effort was a pita -weak.

All the diesel electric locomotive’s ~ 4400 hp diesel engine does in most cases is run the main alternator AND aux electrical systems …. Basically a Motorized gen set that can run small town for power. We set some locomotive up to serve as gen sets for hospitals and such - emergency use. When you shut down locomotive diesel engine and run traction motor from batteries the locomotives is extremely limited. On ac traction motor locomotives the computers use fiber optics to fire the igbt inverters to drive the ac traction motor in battery mode. The 64v dc lead acid batteries have to be up to the task - full charged. Extremely short operation time in battery mode. Btw we use electric traction motors for their huge torque and control of tractive power forces. Still use - locomotive thrown SAND as traction additive on tracks.
most of time the regen from freight locomotives is sent to grids to be wasted as expelled heat - the regen provides 6 figure breaking forces on the locomotives set in dynamic braking mode. With radio - linked locomotives we might put a loco in middle or rear of consist and have back locomotive still pushing while head end is in dynamic to slow the head of train consist. Keeps draw bar effect forces down and distributed through train consist knuckles.

Think it was Mazda that designed a small wankel engine gen set car years ago. The engine is lightweight and only runs to charge batteries to a set point.

My ice rav4 was ~$31,000 whereas the Prime was ~$50,000+ Not worth it to me. To other ppl might be worth it. Will be interesting to see if Prime maintains typical Toyota resale values.

 

[Checkthisout]

This allows both modes. Hybrid and ev suffer on free ways. Best time to probably select the prime battery charge mode - when gas engine gets its’ best mileage on the hwy . Running charge mode on prime in city will be worse mileage. They did not give the specs in video.

What's the point? All this does is extend electric only range but reduces overall fuel economy.

Again guys. You're wasting fuel when you covert fuel to electricity, put it in battery and then convert it back to mechanical energy. If you're doing this there is no point in owning a plug-in hybrid.

Ever seen a freight diesel locomotive with a drive shaft to the wheels? They tried to run some transfer trucks - rail runner style to move freight cars but didn’t work out. Not enough ass and tractive effort was a pita -weak.

The reduction ratio and power transfer method would be ridiculous so yeah, electric in that case is easier.

What if the engine just sat off to the side of the tracks, generated power and then put it into the train and powered it that way?

My ice rav4 was ~$31,000 whereas the Prime was ~$50,000+ Not worth it to me. To other ppl might be worth it. Will be interesting to see if Prime maintains typical Toyota resale values.

It will be a good platform to tinker with later on when out of warranty.

 

[aenyc]

@D71 is spot on and my point closely aligns.
We want instant torque of the electric motor for taking off (this is where gas efficiency is at its worst), or for quick acceleration needs (taking over, etc). This is where electric motor really excels.
But when coasting on the highway, gas engine is most efficient, especially if gear shifting is minimized.
Not being required to plug in is a godsend to vast majority of people, because it can eliminate the need to plug in. 80% is fine and as D71 correctly pointed out, most EV's charge to 80% regardless or method (100% charge is not even recommended in most cases for obvious reasons).
And I know for sure that people at BMW/Audi/etc know this and can easily engineer a "perfect" PHEV. But they are choosing not to! All of these little limitations here and there are baked in the cake, and that can only be political (Such as "always connected to the internet" with NO option to turn it off).

 

[Checkthisout]

@D71 is spot on and my point closely aligns.
We want instant torque of the electric motor for taking off (this is where gas efficiency is at its worst), or for quick acceleration needs (taking over, etc). This is where electric motor really excels.

So buy an electric-only car?

But when coasting on the highway, gas engine is most efficient, especially if gear shifting is minimized.
Not being required to plug in is a godsend to vast majority of people, because it can eliminate the need to plug in. 80% is fine and as D71 correctly pointed out, most EV's charge to 80% regardless or method (100% charge is not even recommended in most cases for obvious reasons).
And I know for sure that people at BMW/Audi/etc know this and can easily engineer a "perfect" PHEV. But they are choosing not to! All of these little limitations here and there are baked in the cake, and that can only be political (Such as "always connected to the internet" with NO option to turn it off).

Ok, my bad. You're strictly after performance and do not care about fuel consumption. You want an electric because they are fast and then you want a gasoline engine to charge it back up when you return home for the evening.

 

[aenyc]

So buy an electric-only car?



Ok, my bad. You're strictly after performance and do not care about fuel consumption. You want an electric because they are fast and then you want a gasoline engine to charge it back up when you return home for the evening.

Finally you are starting to get it!

Yes i want it all - I want performance (High power Turbo V6 generating 350+ hp alone)
A small-is electric motor tied to the LFP battery that can be charged either via engine or plug in.
I want instant torque to take off.
I want 120mpg (As tested on a diesel-hybrid audi q7 prototype) combined when cruising on a highway (Thats NY to Florida on 1 tank!).
And i want clean, zero tailpipe emissions when cruising in the city/to/from city center. 50 Miles on a battery is plenty for this kind of task! (The BMW electric motor mode alone can reach 85 mph and last for 50 miles!)
I want LFP because it is much less prone to thermal runaway, but they are heavier and have less energy density, but for complementation as i described they are almost perfect until technology improves and solid state batteries are invented.
Yes i am willing to pay significant premium for this.

 

[aenyc]

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m5

This, but charge from gas engine in addition to outlet.

 

[Checkthisout]

Finally you are starting to get it!

Yes i want it all - I want performance (High power Turbo V6 generating 350+ hp alone)
A small-is electric motor tied to the LFP battery that can be charged either via engine or plug in.
I want instant torque to take off.
I want 120mpg (As tested on a diesel-hybrid audi q7 prototype) combined when cruising on a highway (Thats NY to Florida on 1 tank!).
And i want clean, zero tailpipe emissions when cruising in the city/to/from city center. 50 Miles on a battery is plenty for this kind of task! (The BMW electric motor mode alone can reach 85 mph and last for 50 miles!)
I want LFP because it is much less prone to thermal runaway, but they are heavier and have less energy density, but for complementation as i described they are almost perfect until technology improves and solid state batteries are invented.
Yes i am willing to pay significant premium for this.

Now that you know they are available at the significant premium, go ahead and post a review after you take delivery and have had some time to get used to her.

Ferrari SF90 Stradale | Ferrari.com

Ferrari SF90 Stradale, first series production PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle): V8 turbo, 1000cv maximum power, weightpower ratio of 1.57 kgcv.

www.ferrari.com

 

[aenyc]

Now that you know they are available at the significant premium, go ahead and post a review after you take delivery and have had some time to get used to her.

Ferrari SF90 Stradale | Ferrari.com

Ferrari SF90 Stradale, first series production PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle): V8 turbo, 1000cv maximum power, weightpower ratio of 1.57 kgcv.

www.ferrari.com

Significant premium still means reasonable. There are very few people who need a Ferrari (I am not one of them)
If I was to pay 70K for a performance sport sedan (Such as BMW M440i which is not the real M, but the V6 version of the normal), I would pay additional 10-15K for the PHEV version of it with more power, better fuel economy and self-charge.

 

[Crowz]

Significant premium still means reasonable. There are very few people who need a Ferrari (I am not one of them)
If I was to pay 70K for a performance sport sedan (Such as BMW M440i which is not the real M, but the V6 version of the normal), I would pay additional 10-15K for the PHEV version of it with more power, better fuel economy and self-charge.

BMW M TwinPower Turbo inline 6-cylinder uses advanced 48V mild hybrid technology to perform with heightened eBoost power and optimized efficiency.

Not a v6

Its my motor of choice on my bmw's. They can't make a v motor to save their lives that will last. Inline motors they rule at

 

[aenyc]

BMW M TwinPower Turbo inline 6-cylinder uses advanced 48V mild hybrid technology to perform with heightened eBoost power and optimized efficiency.

Not a v6

Its my motor of choice on my bmw's. They can't make a v motor to save their lives that will last. Inline motors they rule at

Agreed, i defaulted to a "V6" for all 6-cyl engines
I have an M440, great car and its still possible to disable all the "nannies" and big brother (Something that is no longer possible on the Audi's)