Batteries died and will not accept charge. Help!

[WNCGUY]

Currently on a road trip from North Carolina to California and my batteries have died (current voltage is 4.5v).
Wole up this morning, turned on the coffee maker and went into the store. When I came back had hot coffee but noticed the coffee maker light was off and then discovered all power dead.

Checked voltage at batteries, about 4.5v. Batteries are charged with a Victron DC to DC charger, I noticed green light is not on when van engine is running, and app shows only 0.8 output so can’t charge batteries with DC to DC charger.

Attempted to charge using Victron blue smart charger but when plugged in to 120v outlet no lights turn on when charger is connected to Battery. Disconnected from batteries charger starts up as expected. So I can not charge with shore power.

I’ve checked all fuses, none were blown. This system has operated without issues since installed about a year ago, most recent trip was a few months ago, 24 days North Carolina to Nova Scotia and back.

No idea why the batteries died or why I cannot charge by DC to DC or shore power, is it possible the batteries at such low voltage are now shutdown by the Batteries BMS,s?

Anyway I am now without power. I built this system with the help of some very knowledgeable people on this forum, so here I am now asking for help again.

 

[FilterGuy]

A few questions and comments.

The fact that the chargers don't turn on when hooked up kinda implies a short circuit. Try disconnecting the batteries from the rest of the system and then hook the charger directly to the batteries and see what happens

What kind of batteries do you have?

 

[Culchee]

You could be right about the bms shutting down ... maybe search the forum on how to wake it up... do you have more info on your batteries and general set up..?

 

[Culchee]

Currently on a road trip from North Carolina to California and my batteries have died (current voltage is 4.5v).
Work up this morning, turned on the coffee maker and went into the store. When I came back had hot coffee but noticed the coffee maker light was off and then discovered all power dead.

Checked voltage at batteries, about 4.5v. Batteries are charged with a Victron DC to DC charger, I noticed green light is not on white van engine running and is app shows only 0.8 output so can’t charge batteries with DC to DC charger.

Attempted to charge using Victron blue smart charger but when plugged in to 120v outlet no lights turn on when charger is connected to Battery. Disconnected from batteries charger starts up as expected. So I can not charge with shore power.

I’ve checked all fuses, none were blown. This system has operated without issues since installed about a year ago, most recent trip was a few months ago, 24 days North Carolina to Nova Scotia and back.

No idea why the batteries died of why I can not charge by DC to DC or shore power, is it possible the batteries at such low voltage are now shutdown be the Batteries BMS,s?

Anyway I am now without power. I diols this system with the help of some very knowledgeable people on this forum, so here I am now asking for help again.

Just wondering about the fact that you’re in an rv... a lot of rattling and shaking.. could be something has come loose or short circuit as posted in other comment...

 

[FilterGuy]

You could be right about the bms shutting down ... maybe search the forum on how to wake it up.

In my experience BMSs will work in one of three ways.

1) It never really turns off unless disconnected from the battery. If it detects a problem it will shut down charge and/or discharge but try again later.
2) Once it turns off, it must be turned on by a charge voltage on the inputs
3) Requires a cycle of an on-off switch.

There are various combinations of the above as well.

This is why I was wondering what battery it is.

 

[mikefitz]

The bms has perhaps shutdown. To wake it up you need to apply a power supply, many chargers will not function unless they "see" the battery with reasonable volts.
If your DC to DC charger is a Victron Orion Smart charger, use the app and change operation from charger to power supply with a 12.5volt output. You can also use the IP 22 charger in power supply mode if you have shore power. This should wake up the battery, After which it will charge normally, so change the configuration back to charger.

 

[Culchee]

In my experience BMSs will work in one of three ways.

1) It never really turns off unless disconnected from the battery. If it detects a problem it will shut down charge and/or discharge but try again later.
2) Once it turns off, it must be turned on by a charge voltage on the inputs
3) Requires a cycle of an on-off switch.

There are various combinations of the above as well.

This is why I was wondering what battery it is.

Thanx for all the good info...don’t understand 3. But anyhow not important... not much fun to have malfunction on road trip... ?

 

[Dave in AZ]

Didnt say what kind of batteries.
On road trip... what is the temperature? In Phoenix it was 37f this morning at 7. Were your batteries below freezing or bms cutoff temp, if lifepo4?

 

[WNCGUY]

31F degrees here in Layton Utah but I need to restore power so tried the two easiest suggestions first.

1) changed my Victron Orion Smart charger to power supply but charger still would not operate, I did notice that the green light was not illuminated, tried the same thing with my Victron blue smart charger with same results.

2) unplugged the single 120ac line that is supplied by the inverter, still no luck.

3) Since power was lost while making coffee with the coffee maker plugged into the inverter, I disconnected the inverter conductors from the system and tried charging the batteries with first the Victron Orion smart charger (Green light on), and then the Victron the Victron Blue charger. SUCCESS! Both seem to be working.

Perhaps the inverter has failed internally?

My batteries are, two SOK 100ah wired in parallel, 12v 200amps.

Currently I am charging on shore power, battery indicates 30 amps output from charger.

I have been in temps as low as 25F but did not charge at night and only ran a reading light and Iceco fridge, I am in a minivan.

Battery damage. Do you think they may have gotten damaged. Anything different I should be doing or just charge unilateral topped up?

 

[WNCGUY]

The temp just dropped to freezing so I have stopped charging, expected highs for the next few days as around freezing. Heading to Southern California Dec 26, so will continue charging in warmer weather.

 

[Dave in AZ]

The temp just dropped to freezing so I have stopped charging, expected highs for the next few days as around freezing. Heading to Southern California Dec 26, so will continue charging in warmer weather.

You can't charge Lifepo4 batteries at freezing or below. Most good chargers have low temp protection, and many BMS have low temp protection. This is one of the top considerations for mobile systems-- if your power station or charger doesn't have low temp protection, then your batteries need to. And maybe heated batteries.

Anyway, you said it was 31f, probably colder in the morning. Either your charger or bms cut off charging if you have low temp protection, or you tried to charge your batteries below 32f and they wouldn't charge, it sounds like. No lifepo4 batteries charge below freezing, and doing so will jack them up apparently.

My guess is it was just a kiw temp freezing issue.

Hopefully they are OK. I looked at victron orion tr smart dc to dc charger. It does NOT have low temp charging protection. Neither do your SOK batteries, unless you specifically bought them with low temperature protection, which adds $50 to price usually.

You can discharge below freezing, that is use them, just can't charge. Recommend you just dont try to charge them from victron until they have warmed up daily.

 

[Bob B]

Are the temperatures outdoor temperature or battery temperature as indicated in the App?
Does your battery have the built in heating function?
When failing to charge does the App indicate which protection function is triggered?
Do you have a multimeter and know how to use it?

 

[Skypower]

Will is so obsessed with low temperature cutoff and rightfully so. What’s it cost to install during manufacturing, .50 cents?
Overkill, Daly, JK and many other diy bms have this as standard, no excuse for any manufacture to not have them in any type of battery from recreational to rack.

 

[HarryN]

At least the older SOKs would trip the BMS and cut off both charge and discharge when the battery BMS dropped below ~ freezing.

I have been told but am not sure that the newer BMS versions trip the charging side but not the discharge side until the temp goes even lower.

That was also one of the differences between for instance Battle born and SOKs.

If you are going to be in the SF Bay area during your trip, feel free to stop by and we can drink coffee and look at it together.

 

[GalenZ]

This is most likely HWFS. Holiday Weekend Failure Syndrome. It's a hidden function in almost all complex systems, and some simple symptoms, as well. While its origin may be multi-source, it has been happening at least since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It actually may predate the IR and be responsible for the commonly known Murphy's Law.

This Syndrome usually surfaces in normally well-functioning systems. Most often triggered by some totally innocuous source, there seems to be some kind of Cosmic Intelligence involved which can sense that the ordinarily dependable system is operating in some sort of marginal condition, or conditions. Hence, while the Failure may originate from a simple anomaly, it is certain to occur on a Holiday Weekend or Sunday, and in a location or time when help is unavailable and parts unobtainable. Bcause of triggering HWFS, results are usually catastrophic and can only be remedied by accessing skilled labor, practiced in the Cosmic Arts and available only 9-5 on normal weekdays. This will also require scheduling an appointment far in advance and at the time which will be either impossible, or the most inconvenient for you.

Once initiated, there is little hope of resolution, short of Divine Intervention. Best you google, What to Do When Absolutely F#*ked. There you will generally find some pretty good general advice on how to relax, get out your credit card and Go With The Flow.

Alternatively, this thread may offer some relief.

 

[WNCGUY]

Update.
As I headed south from Northern Utah, temps were above 32f so turned my DC to DC charger on and charged the batteries while driving, batteries charged so I turned the fridge back on and have been charging and using dc power, fridge, lights, water pump, usb ports without any issues.

I have not reconnected the inverter to see what happens, as a reminder, I had no power at all, ac or dc until I removed the inverter main conductors from the Victron lynx battery power in (hacked to house fuses).

At this point without additional troubleshooting I am guessing the inverter may have failed but do not understand what this would also affect the dc power?

I expect to be on the road for another 10-15 days and would like to restore ac power but if the inverter has indeed failed not sure if I could repair it.

 

[WNCGUY]

Deleted double post.

 

[0truck0]

Outside temp is irrelevant. You only need to watch the inside temp at the battery. My inside area seems to stay 5 degrees warmer than the outside no matter what, and batts are insulated from the floor and the wall and open to the cabin. IF you are driving in a van with the heat on then very likely your inside temp at the battery is much warmer than freezing, is the battery inside?

Your inverter could be the issue. That electricity has to go somewhere, if a short, then something is going to get really hot or something will just blow (disconnect as result) pretty quick or melt.

 

[WNCGUY]

Update, back home in North Carolina so it's time to try and figure out what went wrong.

To recap. I lost both AC and DC power one morning after brewing coffee. Discovered that removing the inverter from the electrical system allowed a charge to the batteries from Victron DC to DC charger or Victron IP22 charger, the 12v power performed flawlessly for the remainder of our road trip and we went without AC power for the remainder of the trip.

A few days ago, I got around to reconnecting the inverter and had no AC or DC power, disconnected inverter, no power. Applied a charge to batteries for about 1 minutes and now have DC power and have been running my fridge for the last 48+hr. without issue.

So, it appears the problem is the inverter, a GO Wise 1500 watt. Is there anything I can check, are they worth repairing?

 

[HarryN]

Most likely the problem is not your specific inverter.

What you are describing is what happens when there is a surge of power draw to charge up the capacitors on the input stage of inverters. Basically the current surge trips the battery bms.

Just do a search on pre-charging inverters for solutions.