Battle Born Victorious

[JunglePower]

Hello fellow solar gatherers,

I am totally off-grid on an island. I have two BB powered systems. In one location are eight BB10012 in series/parallel 48vdc and the other six of the same for 24vdc. The eight in the 48vdc system have been operating flawlessly. I'm very pleased.

However, I have been having issues with the 24vdc system in another property where I do not live. I think the system has not been monitored as it should as the occupants were not vigilant with the system and had numerous LVD episodes. Numerous times I went over to find out what was wrong and found one or two 10012s at 10vdc. I balanced them individually and for about a week they seemed fine. Recently I found two suspect batteries that I brought back to my place to "bench." One had a loose + terminal. I could pivot it back and forth, circuit opened and closed. The other, although reading 12.8vdc will not take a charge, not a trickle, not a high-amp boost. I had been in contact with Aaron at BB a few times but alas, the expense of trying to get the faulty batteries back to the 'states would not be feasible.

I cut out the case around the loose terminal using Will's "BB tear-down" video as a guide.

. Sure enough, the bolt through the + bus bar to the terminal post was loose and there was evidence of overheating. I also noticed the terminal post is bolted to a black plastic strip on the inside edge of the bus bar and the bolt itself conducts the current as the post does not directly contact the bus bar. I removed the terminal post, cleaned and shined the bolt, double nuts and the bus bar, bolted it together and it charged fine. However, it really drew a lot of amps to start, over 50 measured with a Klein amp clamp on the - lead of the charger. The post got warm, almost hot to the touch until the current dropped to 40adc then hours later to nil. So I saved that battery, questioning WHY the terminal post is mounted on plastic????? The current path is only through the head of the bolt!

The other battery refuses to charge. It indicates 12.8vdc and as above, it will not wake-up to receive a charge. Any suggestions? My main charger is a Powermax 75LK Converter/Charger.

I have learned the string of 24vdc controllers were not set high enough for proper balancing which I will quickly remedy. Seems the balancing of the cells at 14.4vdc was not emphasized by BB user instructions in the past. I have insured my string of eight 48vdc gets topped to 58.3vdc occasionally. I have set the 24vdc so it can reach 29.4vdc on occasion.

So I did repair the one battery with the loose terminal but the other refuses charging. Any suggestions? Thanks for your time!

 

[JunglePower]

I just took a photo of the terminal I question.
Note the terminal does not directly contact the bus bar.

 

[JunglePower]

Update:
The BB10012 with the loose terminal has totally recovered. Maintained 13.4vdc for almost two days.
So I decided to connect it in parallel with the battery that will not charge.
Strange as it seems, I do not think the BMS went to LVD due to the fact that it reads 12.8vdc but if I connect a small LED light, the light hardly glows and the battery drops to 7.1vdc.
So I have the charger on the bad battery which is connected in parallel with the recovered one and the DC draw is only 0.25adc from the charger.

I've not seen anyone respond, even to tell me I'm plumb loco! Anyone?

 

[mikefitz]

Since you have successfully opened one battery, open the other that's refusing to take a charge and test the cells, examine all connections. With care and continually monitoring cell volts, charge 'inside' the BMS.


Odd issues may be preventing the BMS from working correctly, for example a faulty temperature sensor.

Mike

 

[HarryN]

I use that battery all of the time for customer projects.

One of the important things is to make sure to not stress the discharge current too high - really on any LiFe battery.

I set the systems up so that when the inverter is running full power, the battery will be discharging at around 50 - 60 amps per battery.

One of the things that can happen with parallel strings is that when they go into LVD, it requires removing ALL sources of voltage to re-set.

The way that I do this is to have a breaker on each parallel string and use this to turn them on / off individually a few times.

It might be that one of the strings has not re-set and it is running on just one of the 24 volt packs instead of all of them. This would would help to explain why the terminal is looking like it got hot.

 

[JunglePower]

Since you have successfully opened one battery, open the other that's refusing to take a charge and test the cells, examine all connections. With care and continually monitoring cell volts, charge 'inside' the BMS.


Odd issues may be preventing the BMS from working correctly, for example a faulty temperature sensor.

Mike

Thank you for your input. I have hesitated opening this one until I know if it is feasible to ship it back to Reno.
I like the idea of charging the cells detouring the BMS. Appreciate your suggestion.

 

[JunglePower]

I use that battery all of the time for customer projects.

One of the important things is to make sure to not stress the discharge current too high - really on any LiFe battery.

I set the systems up so that when the inverter is running full power, the battery will be discharging at around 50 - 60 amps per battery.

One of the things that can happen with parallel strings is that when they go into LVD, it requires removing ALL sources of voltage to re-set.

The way that I do this is to have a breaker on each parallel string and use this to turn them on / off individually a few times.

It might be that one of the strings has not re-set and it is running on just one of the 24 volt packs instead of all of them. This would would help to explain why the terminal is looking like it got hot.

Thanks for your thoughts and diagnosis. Much Appreciated.
I really think this is what happened to five out of the six in the string. It could be my fault as I depended on the occupant of the house to monitor the system. The way it has been behaving, I think there are more than one more that went into LVD.
This weekend, he is leaving for a month. I'm going to shut down the whole system and bring the remaining four back to my workshop and begin to try and balance/wake up the entire string. I can then balance them and monitor SOC & SOH for a week or so.
I cannot say enough good about BattleBorn, their products and their support. The eight (48dc system) I have here in this house, on this island perform flawlessly and have been for over two years.
I only need to run my generator to make sure it still works.
At least once a week I see 58vdc which tells me they are being balanced, so all is well with this system.
I will repost my findings with the other four and the results. Hopefully only this one I have now will need to be sent to BB.

 

[JRH]

Just an honest statement here……there is three sides to every story…YOUR- Theirs - The Truth. … a more accurate title for your thread would have been “ return shipping bummer “ .. Not Battle borne bummer … anything can have an issue … I don’t know where your at but you should expect to at least get the item back to the people you want to help you…what did you expect them to do if you won’t ship them back..?

Not wishing to ship the batterys back for replacement or repair was your choice…Not theirs…

I have dealt a lot with Arron in tech support… , Shawna in returns and several of the sales team with questions and one return on a small Victron device.… a seamlessly smooth experience.
They all are just excellent in everyway…
I have no doubt that if you had a serious issue with the batterys that you let other people “babysit , and had returned them as explained clearly in the warranty, you would not have the problems you have faced… Ya Probably would have had 2 new batts.

no offense meant , just calling it how I see it..

J.
A Happy Battle borne customer

 

[JunglePower]

I, too am a very happy Battle Born customer. I have 12 in service right now.

It is not a case of not wanting to send them back, it is logistics. I'm sure the one with the loose B+ terminal would not be warrantied because of abuse. It is now repaired and good as new. This was not a fault from Battle Born.

The second one that will not accept a charge MAY, PERHAPS, POSSIBLY will be replaced by the good folks at Battle Born. Shawna IS helping me.

I live in an archipelago of small islands off the east coast of Panama. It will cost me over $250.00 and three weeks to send this one battery back to the U.S. for BB to have it picked up. If the warranty claim is declined, not only will I be out $250.00 BUT I will have no battery that I may be able to salvage. If they do find it is not my fault but a defect within the battery, they will ship me a new one to MIAMI. Then it is another $300.00+ to get it here on the island close to me.

So either way, the expense/logistics are the reason for my hesitation to have Aaron and Shawna rectify the situation. Getting the new battery here PLUS shipping the dead one back to the 'states is awful close to the cost of a brand new one.

Get it?

I have been more than happy with BB, Aaron, Shawna and the rest of their team. Excellent service for an excellent product.

A Happy Battle Born Customer

 

[JRH]

I, too am a very happy Battle Born customer. I have 12 in service right now.

It is not a case of not wanting to send them back, it is logistics. I'm sure the one with the loose B+ terminal would not be warrantied because of abuse. It is now repaired and good as new. This was not a fault from Battle Born.

The second one that will not accept a charge MAY, PERHAPS, POSSIBLY will be replaced by the good folks at Battle Born. Shawna IS helping me.

I live in an archipelago of small islands off the east coast of Panama. It will cost me over $250.00 and three weeks to send this one battery back to the U.S. for BB to have it picked up. If the warranty claim is declined, not only will I be out $250.00 BUT I will have no battery that I may be able to salvage. If they do find it is not my fault but a defect within the battery, they will ship me a new one to MIAMI. Then it is another $300.00+ to get it here on the island close to me.

So either way, the expense/logistics are the reason for my hesitation to have Aaron and Shawna rectify the situation. Getting the new battery here PLUS shipping the dead one back to the 'states is awful close to the cost of a brand new one.

Get it?

I have been more than happy with BB, Aaron, Shawna and the rest of their team. Excellent service for an excellent product.

A Happy Battle Born Customer

No I don’t “get it” . Check your attitude man.. you spent some money for a product … I have as many BB as you and I’m just a rural Appalachian poor hillbilly..
you have about a 10,000, dollar expenditure roughly. you have a potential 550 dollar expence to get it working ( shipping) … Duhhh …chump change…! Who cares…are ya broke..?
because you live in Tim - buck - too ,does that mean your entitled to better treatment in life… should we feel sorry for ya… ?
i live where it takes a hour and a half to go get a pizza or a beer…… and 5 hours driving to go get my Honda generator serviced… I knew this when I moved here in the middle of nowhere…you should have factored that into your life plan as I did..
just get your stuff done and move on with life.. quit whining.
WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE….

 

[HarryN]

This is the breaker type that I use in 24 volt systems.

187-Series - Blue Sea Systems

Thermal circuit breakers provide heavy duty circuit protection for 25 to 200 Amp loads when switching and circuit protection are both required.

www.bluesea.com

It is a bus 187 type. It is marine rated and has a fairly high amp interrupt rating - plenty for those batteries.

The marine rating should be good for your environment.

I put an 80 amp one in line with each parallel battery string.

This helps to limit how many amps are pulled from each battery pack, but still have some over head to work with.

It makes it easy to re-set the BMS with a simple on / off.

Keep in mind that is is "thermal breaker", so it behaves similar to a fuse in terms of how it trips. It is not a "magnetic breaker" so it is less precise and it will pass short time period surges that exceed the rating.


One of the challenges that all battery mfg have (and power station companies ) is that testers and reviewers have pushed them all to be extremely competitive marketing levels. This puts them in a tough spot - loose business for being conservative technically, or stretch their data sheets to the limits.

I understand both side of this challenge and have chosen to loose business for being conservative, but it stings sometimes.

____________

If it makes you feel any better, this type of thing has happened to others as well.

Nearly every time that I suggest having a breaker in each battery string, the idea is ignored but it does make it much easier to deal with a customer that is in a remote location.

My wife won't pull out tools to change a fuse, but she will flip a breaker on / off no problem.

 

[JunglePower]

This is the breaker type that I use in 24 volt systems.

187-Series - Blue Sea Systems

Thermal circuit breakers provide heavy duty circuit protection for 25 to 200 Amp loads when switching and circuit protection are both required.

www.bluesea.com

It is a bus 187 type. It is marine rated and has a fairly high amp interrupt rating - plenty for those batteries.

The marine rating should be good for your environment.

I put an 80 amp one in line with each parallel battery string.

This helps to limit how many amps are pulled from each battery pack, but still have some over head to work with.

It makes it easy to re-set the BMS with a simple on / off.

Keep in mind that is is "thermal breaker", so it behaves similar to a fuse in terms of how it trips. It is not a "magnetic breaker" so it is less precise and it will pass short time period surges that exceed the rating.


One of the challenges that all battery mfg have (and power station companies ) is that testers and reviewers have pushed them all to be extremely competitive marketing levels. This puts them in a tough spot - loose business for being conservative technically, or stretch their data sheets to the limits.

I understand both side of this challenge and have chosen to loose business for being conservative, but it stings sometimes.

____________

If it makes you feel any better, this type of thing has happened to others as well.

Nearly every time that I suggest having a breaker in each battery string, the idea is ignored but it does make it much easier to deal with a customer that is in a remote location.

My wife won't pull out tools to change a fuse, but she will flip a breaker on / off no problem.

This is why I came here to Will's forum. Brilliant idea which I will utilize in the six string 24vdc system at the other house.
It will give me some peace of mind. I can easily monitor the eight 48vdc system here where I live but may consider your breaker here as well.
This is a VERY constructive reply and I learned something, which is why I am here.
Thank you!

 

[JunglePower]

No I don’t “get it” . Check your attitude man.. you spent some money for a product … I have as many BB as you and I’m just a rural Appalachian poor hillbilly..
you have about a 10,000, dollar expenditure roughly. you have a potential 550 dollar expence to get it working ( shipping) … Duhhh …chump change…! Who cares…are ya broke..?
because you live in Tim - buck - too ,does that mean your entitled to better treatment in life… should we feel sorry for ya… ?
i live where it takes a hour and a half to go get a pizza or a beer…… and 5 hours driving to go get my Honda generator serviced… I knew this when I moved here in the middle of nowhere…you should have factored that into your life plan as I did..
just get your stuff done and move on with life.. quit whining.
WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE….

Sorry I ruffled your feathers.
I joined here for the technical expertise.

Oh, I retired here because I couldn't afford to live in the U.S. on my retirement funds.

I trust we can exchange "war" stories as I lived in West Virginia as a child.

 

[JRH]

Sorry I ruffled your feathers.
I joined here for the technical expertise.

Oh, I retired here because I couldn't afford to live in the U.S. on my retirement funds.

I trust we can exchange "war" stories as I lived in West Virginia as a child.

Ahh , West VA….good place…and not far…
you joined a great place on this forum.
im sure you will find it rewarding.

good luck on yer endeavor..
J.

 

[JunglePower]

Ahh , West VA….good place…and not far…
you joined a great place on this forum.
im sure you will find it rewarding.

good luck on yer endeavor..
J.

Thanks brother!

 

[JunglePower]

"One bad apple DOES spoil the whole bunch." One battery defeated the string of six.
The two totally dead BB10012 are being replaced at NO CHARGE by Aaron and his manager at Battle Born. I simply pay the freight from Miami to Panama and I do not need to ship the dead ones back.
THIS IS THE REASON I CHOSE BATTLE BORN!! Kudos to them.
The other four are resuscitating quite nicely. One of them actually pulled 57 amps from the charger before settling down, after a few hours the current was at 0.01adc.

Thanks to all who replied, especially HarryN, the "Solar Addict."

 

[JunglePower]

This is the breaker type that I use in 24 volt systems.

187-Series - Blue Sea Systems

Thermal circuit breakers provide heavy duty circuit protection for 25 to 200 Amp loads when switching and circuit protection are both required.

www.bluesea.com

It is a bus 187 type. It is marine rated and has a fairly high amp interrupt rating - plenty for those batteries.

The marine rating should be good for your environment.

I put an 80 amp one in line with each parallel battery string.

This helps to limit how many amps are pulled from each battery pack, but still have some over head to work with.

It makes it easy to re-set the BMS with a simple on / off.

Keep in mind that is is "thermal breaker", so it behaves similar to a fuse in terms of how it trips. It is not a "magnetic breaker" so it is less precise and it will pass short time period surges that exceed the rating.


One of the challenges that all battery mfg have (and power station companies ) is that testers and reviewers have pushed them all to be extremely competitive marketing levels. This puts them in a tough spot - loose business for being conservative technically, or stretch their data sheets to the limits.

I understand both side of this challenge and have chosen to loose business for being conservative, but it stings sometimes.

____________

If it makes you feel any better, this type of thing has happened to others as well.

Nearly every time that I suggest having a breaker in each battery string, the idea is ignored but it does make it much easier to deal with a customer that is in a remote location.

My wife won't pull out tools to change a fuse, but she will flip a breaker on / off no problem.

Hello HarryN,
Thanks again, details in my latest post.

 

[JunglePower]

This is the breaker type that I use in 24 volt systems.

187-Series - Blue Sea Systems

Thermal circuit breakers provide heavy duty circuit protection for 25 to 200 Amp loads when switching and circuit protection are both required.

www.bluesea.com

It is a bus 187 type. It is marine rated and has a fairly high amp interrupt rating - plenty for those batteries.

The marine rating should be good for your environment.

I put an 80 amp one in line with each parallel battery string.

This helps to limit how many amps are pulled from each battery pack, but still have some over head to work with.

It makes it easy to re-set the BMS with a simple on / off.

Keep in mind that is is "thermal breaker", so it behaves similar to a fuse in terms of how it trips. It is not a "magnetic breaker" so it is less precise and it will pass short time period surges that exceed the rating.


One of the challenges that all battery mfg have (and power station companies ) is that testers and reviewers have pushed them all to be extremely competitive marketing levels. This puts them in a tough spot - loose business for being conservative technically, or stretch their data sheets to the limits.

I understand both side of this challenge and have chosen to loose business for being conservative, but it stings sometimes.

____________

If it makes you feel any better, this type of thing has happened to others as well.

Nearly every time that I suggest having a breaker in each battery string, the idea is ignored but it does make it much easier to deal with a customer that is in a remote location.

My wife won't pull out tools to change a fuse, but she will flip a breaker on / off no problem.

I needed to make mention, I put the last of the six on the charger and it immediately started to suck a whopping 67amps out of the charger. I backed it off as the amps slowly dropped because the + terminal was getting hot to the touch.
I'll begin gradually bringing it back tomorrow. At least it is taking a charge. Other than the totally dead one, the others pulled about 32adc at max and gradually went down to 0.01adc.
I'm ashamed of myself for not making a weekly boat trip to the other island to check the system. Every day we learn something new.

 

[HarryN]

I needed to make mention, I put the last of the six on the charger and it immediately started to suck a whopping 67amps out of the charger. I backed it off as the amps slowly dropped because the + terminal was getting hot to the touch.
I'll begin gradually bringing it back tomorrow. At least it is taking a charge. Other than the totally dead one, the others pulled about 32adc at max and gradually went down to 0.01adc.
I'm ashamed of myself for not making a weekly boat trip to the other island to check the system. Every day we learn something new.

That is interesting. Note that the max rated charge current is 50 amps for the BBs and they have one of the higher charge rates of batteries on the market for size 27s commercial batteries. Many LiFe batteries on the market have max charge rates of 1/2 of that. For the stuff that I build, I really need the high charge rate and that is exactly why I use Lifeline AGM and BB LiFe batteries in my builds.

Li batteries are a little bit like a black hole. They will try to suck dry the universe if you let them - even if they destroy themselves in the process. It is up to you to regulate how fast they are allowed to absorb that energy. If your charger has too much power capability, then you will need to spread it out over more batteries in parallel.

I use a charger from dual pro to balance charge batteries to make a sort of "matched set" prior to using them in 24 and 48 volt banks.

Another method that works is to wire them all together in parallel / 12 volt, and put them on a small solar charger ( like 100 - 200 watts ) and just let it run for a while. In a pinch you can even just hook it up with a nominal 12 volt panel and no charger if you keep an eye on it with a volt meter.

After a while they will all be pretty balanced with each other. At that point, usually they stay balanced for years.

Don't beat yourself up for going through a learning process. Experience doesn't come for free and without some pain - We just don't always talk about that part.....

________--

I still remember being in a physics class ~ 1979 and the professor was up front. He needed something for a demonstration and ended up using a fairly expensive book as a prop - more or less destroyed it in the process. We were all poor students and one of my buddies asked - "why did you destroy that expensive book? His broken english response "knowledge costs money".

 

[JunglePower]

That is interesting. Note that the max rated charge current is 50 amps for the BBs and they have one of the higher charge rates of batteries on the market for size 27s commercial batteries. Many LiFe batteries on the market have max charge rates of 1/2 of that. For the stuff that I build, I really need the high charge rate and that is exactly why I use Lifeline AGM and BB LiFe batteries in my builds.

Li batteries are a little bit like a black hole. They will try to suck dry the universe if you let them - even if they destroy themselves in the process. It is up to you to regulate how fast they are allowed to absorb that energy. If your charger has too much power capability, then you will need to spread it out over more batteries in parallel.

I use a charger from dual pro to balance charge batteries to make a sort of "matched set" prior to using them in 24 and 48 volt banks.

Another method that works is to wire them all together in parallel / 12 volt, and put them on a small solar charger ( like 100 - 200 watts ) and just let it run for a while. In a pinch you can even just hook it up with a nominal 12 volt panel and no charger if you keep an eye on it with a volt meter.

After a while they will all be pretty balanced with each other. At that point, usually they stay balanced for years.

Don't beat yourself up for going through a learning process. Experience doesn't come for free and without some pain - We just don't always talk about that part.....

________--

I still remember being in a physics class ~ 1979 and the professor was up front. He needed something for a demonstration and ended up using a fairly expensive book as a prop - more or less destroyed it in the process. We were all poor students and one of my buddies asked - "why did you destroy that expensive book? His broken english response "knowledge costs money".

Yes, charging current is to be less than 50% of the battery's capacity. I shut down when I saw 68adc, it was even dragging down THIS house's power. I have enough I can parallel them and reduce the amps, it'll also help with cell balance. I discovered another "loose" B+ terminal on one of them. I could push the terminal back and forth and it changed the current draw.

I recall attending a BMW service school for the first of the severely complex E60 7 series cars. The main B+ battery cable terminal joined the distribution box with a flexible spring-like coil/mesh so expansion and contraction with all the current draw would not allow it to overheat and lose contact.

Again, I really appreciate your input. Thanks!