begin with phoenix 48/1200, add multiplus ii later?

[saltmarsh]

I want to purchase a Phoenix 48/1200 to run a mini split off grid. What components would be necessary to do only this? What components would improve this system? I'd like to start super simple, both due to financial constraints, and because starting simple and then adding on bells and whistles later feels less overwhelming at this point in my learning trajectory.

Later, I would like to purchase a Multiplus ii, either 3000 or 5000, depending on what I end up needing as I see how things go in my tiny house. There seems to be conflicting information on the forums re: whether I can pair a phoenix with a Multiplus. If I can indeed do this, what extra equipment would I need? (A solar rep told me I'd need two separate systems?!)

Will has a video in which he seems to add a phoenix inverter to a Multiplus ii ecosystem, so the rep's statement confuses me.

I am very new to solar, so I hope my questions aren't too silly...

Jen

 

[sunshine_eggo]

You absolutely, positively can't pair them. Pairing Victron inverters require pairing with the same exact model.

You can have two separate inverters on the same battery, but their outputs can't be tied together, so the solar rep as stated is mostly correct.

 

[saltmarsh]

thanks, sunshine...I read somewhere that they can be placed in series. I'm not even sure what this means. Does it mean they both are tied to the rest of the victron components and the panles, but not to each other? Do they need seperate charge controllers for example?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

thanks, sunshine...I read somewhere that they can be placed in series. I'm not even sure what this means.

Me neither. "Parallel" is used to describe interfacing inverters to support each other on the same phase, provide split phase or even 3 phase (with 3 inverters).

Does it mean they both are tied to the rest of the victron components and the panles, but not to each other? Do they need seperate charge controllers for example?

As I said above, the Phoenix could be connected to the same battery as the Multiplus, but their outputs must remain independent.

Picture a complete system for the multiplus. You could simply attach the Phoenix to the same battery and use it to power dedicated loads only with the Phoenix.

 

[740GLE]

Run the Phoenix to the “AC In” on the Multiplus, then code the multipls for “grid support” it won’t get you much more head room but could get you out of a pickle.

I think this is what is referred to as series configuration.

 

[740GLE]

Me neither. "Parallel" is used to describe interfacing inverters to support each other on the same phase, provide split phase or even 3 phase (with 3 inverters).



As I said above, the Phoenix could be connected to the same battery as the Multiplus, but their outputs must remain independent.

Picture a complete system for the multiplus. You could simply attach the Phoenix to the same battery and use it to power dedicated loads only with the Phoenix.

Me neither. "Parallel" is used to describe interfacing inverters to support each other on the same phase, provide split phase or even 3 phase (with 3 inverters).



As I said above, the Phoenix could be connected to the same battery as the Multiplus, but their outputs must remain independent.

Picture a complete system for the multiplus. You could simply attach the Phoenix to the same battery and use it to power dedicated loads only with the Phoenix.

Time to do some more reading on the Victron world and and series stacking. It doesn’t get much excitement but is a cool feature.

If the OP wants to get more output from a Multiplus and already has a Phoenix this will work.

 

[saltmarsh]

thanks, I saw this video but I wasn't sure if i could take information about the multiplus as reliable information about the multiplus ii...

 

[740GLE]

thanks, I saw this video but I wasn't sure if i could take information about the multiplus as reliable information about the multiplus ii...

the video shows a Multiplus II

 

[saltmarsh]

I’m sorry, I meant it shows a Phoenix smart inverter, but I’m guessing the way he’s running it the smart feature wood not matter… very helpful thank you

 

[TomC4306]

There is no discernible smart feature in the Phoenix. It doesn't even have Bluetooth

 

[defed]

There is no discernible smart feature in the Phoenix. It doesn't even have Bluetooth

but there is a model called 'phoenix inverter smart'. not sure if that's the one in that off grid garage video, but i know i saw it on his channel because he specifically mentioned that the name didn't make sense (which is exactly what i was thinking). i think the phoenix 48/1200 is a very simple model, that has only a 'plug type' socket for AC out, if i recall, as i was looking at that model.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I've never seen that unit before:

Phoenix Inverter Smart 1600VA - 5000VA - Victron Energy

Provide for a high peak power surge capacity, stable voltage, frequency and high quality sine-wave with the Phoenix Inverter Smart. Learn more now.

www.victronenergy.com

Bluetooth and configurable via VC. Nice.

It is 230V/50Hz only.

 

[defed]

It is 230V/50Hz only.

yea, which is why i crossed it off of my list and never looked at it too closely.

 

[SoakedUp]

I’m doing this in a 12v configuration. Started off with a Victron phoenix 12/1200 to run a 12k btu mr cool. It worked but every now and then it would overload the pheonix on start up.

I knew I was eventually going to add a 48v system and use a victron multiplus 2 48/3000 but I’m not quite there yet. I needed a little more inverter power so I picked up a multiplus 12/2000. I feed the ac out of the pheonix into the multiplus in. My cerbo uses the programmable relay to only turn on the Pheonix when loads get over 800w for longer than 3 min. For example. Only the MP will be on inverting my loads. Then I turn on the A/C and my load draw gets up to 1300w for over 3 min. The cerbo turns on the pheonix which then shares some of the load (up to 700w). When loads drop below 500 watts for 3 min the pheonix turns off. It works really well and helps keeps the loads low on both inverters which keeps the heat down and the fan from constantly running. Not sure if that will prolong the life of the inverters.

When I add the 48v system I might even feed the AC out from the 12/2000 MP to the 48/3000 MP2 AC if my load draw ever requires that much power.

 

[defed]

I’m doing this in a 12v configuration. Started off with a Victron phoenix 12/1200 to run a 12k btu mr cool. It worked but every now and then it would overload the pheonix on start up.

I knew I was eventually going to add a 48v system and use a victron multiplus 2 48/3000 but I’m not quite there yet. I needed a little more inverter power so I picked up a multiplus 12/2000. I feed the ac out of the pheonix into the multiplus in. My cerbo uses the programmable relay to only turn on the Pheonix when loads get over 800w for longer than 3 min. For example. Only the MP will be on inverting my loads. Then I turn on the A/C and my load draw gets up to 1300w for over 3 min. The cerbo turns on the pheonix which then shares some of the load (up to 700w). When loads drop below 500 watts for 3 min the pheonix turns off. It works really well and helps keeps the loads low on both inverters which keeps the heat down and the fan from constantly running. Not sure if that will prolong the life of the inverters.

When I add the 48v system I might even feed the AC out from the 12/2000 MP to the 48/3000 MP2 AC if my load draw ever requires that much power.

both inverters are on the same battery, correct? and doing so just makes each inverter work a little less?

i was looking at the pheonix 48/1200 because i didn't want to spend a lot right now, but in the long run, it's probably not big enough. maybe i could consider this as a future option if i went w/ the 48/1200 now and the multiplus 2 later.

 

[SoakedUp]

both inverters are on the same battery, correct? and doing so just makes each inverter work a little less?

i was looking at the pheonix 48/1200 because i didn't want to spend a lot right now, but in the long run, it's probably not big enough. maybe i could consider this as a future option if i went w/ the 48/1200 now and the multiplus 2 later.

Yes. Same battery bank . My thought process was similar when I got the pheonix. I wasn’t 100% sure on the final electrical setup, but I needed to power some smaller appliances like a mini fridge, some lights and fans, and a tv. I decided to ultimately have two systems 12v (for small electrical needs and to keep stuff running while not at off grid property) and 48v to run A/C, microwave, and other larger appliances while at the property. It definitely would have been cheaper in the long run to just start with a larger 48v setup but I like the idea of having two systems going for redundancy and back up. If you only plan to have one system voltage I would would just start with the multiplus. I didn’t know the 12/2000 multiplus existed when I got the pheonix. Otherwise I would have started with that and skipped the pheonix all together.

 

[defed]

Yes. Same battery bank . My thought process was similar when I got the pheonix. I wasn’t 100% sure on the final electrical setup, but I needed to power some smaller appliances like a mini fridge, some lights and fans, and a tv. I decided to ultimately have two systems 12v (for small electrical needs and to keep stuff running while not at off grid property) and 48v to run A/C, microwave, and other larger appliances while at the property. It definitely would have been cheaper in the long run to just start with a larger 48v setup but I like the idea of having two systems going for redundancy and back up. If you only plan to have one system voltage I would would just start with the multiplus. I didn’t know the 12/2000 multiplus existed when I got the pheonix. Otherwise I would have started with that and skipped the pheonix all together.

i'm not sure if combining the units increases the output, it looks like it does from his tesla charging test. i imagine it works the same as when the inverter helps the grid, but i'm not entirely sure how that works either...ie does 2400w from a multiplus 2 and 1000w from a 48/1200 mean you can get about 3400w when both are running? if so, it would still be cheaper to get the MP2 48/5000 with more power, but that one has no UL listing. the MP2 48/3000 has 1741 and the P 48/1200 has 458. also not entirely sure if the P 48/1200 has the right connections...i have to watch again which connections OGG used to link them (looks like the remote relay, which i believe the P 48/1200 does have) or if the comms have to be linked at all as he says it doesn't care where AC input comes from.

 

[SoakedUp]

i'm not sure if combining the units increases the output, it looks like it does from his tesla charging test. i imagine it works the same as when the inverter helps the grid, but i'm not entirely sure how that works either...ie does 2400w from a multiplus 2 and 1000w from a 48/1200 mean you can get about 3400w when both are running? if so, it would still be cheaper to get the MP2 48/5000 with more power, but that one has no UL listing. the MP2 48/3000 has 1741 and the P 48/1200 has 458. also not entirely sure if the P 48/1200 has the right connections...i have to watch again which connections OGG used to link them (looks like the remote relay, which i believe the P 48/1200 does have) or if the comms have to be linked at all as he says it doesn't care where AC input comes from.

Yes. Combining the units increases the overall output. The Pheonix acts like grid input. The multiplus allows for up to 50amps of grid ac input on top of whatever it’s able to invert from the batteries. So the 1000 watts from the pheonix will be on top of the 2400w from a 48/3000 multiplus giving you 3400w of usable inverting power from your battery bank. It’s definitely not cheaper than just going with a larger multiplus but it sounded like OP wanted cheap NOW. Not cheap overall. I didn’t mind spending the extra cash over the long run because I like the redundancy of multiple inverters. I can also use my 12/1200 pheonix for another use once I add my 48v system. I was never really looking to save money with my solar projects. It’s more just a hobby and a necessity at the same time since I don’t have grid power on my property.

 

[defed]

Yes. Combining the units increases the overall output. The Pheonix acts like grid input. The multiplus allows for up to 50amps of grid ac input on top of whatever it’s able to invert from the batteries. So the 1000 watts from the pheonix will be on top of the 2400w from a 48/3000 multiplus giving you 3400w of usable inverting power from your battery bank. It’s definitely not cheaper than just going with a larger multiplus but it sounded like OP wanted cheap NOW. Not cheap overall. I didn’t mind spending the extra cash over the long run because I like the redundancy of multiple inverters. I can also use my 12/1200 pheonix for another use once I add my 48v system. I was never really looking to save money with my solar projects. It’s more just a hobby and a necessity at the same time since I don’t have grid power on my property.

exactly what i was thinking....going w/ both is cheaper right now (i've already spent a lot on upgrades recently), and allows for a backup should one break down....as i experienced when my outback died i didn't have anything else to use. i need to study more on how hooking them up like that would work...i agree, going w/ solar as power/backup power is not saving me any money in the long run (my electric bill is less than $50/mo), it's an expensive hobby for sure!

 

[defed]

one of the only things i don't like about the P 48/1200 is the AC out is only a plug socket type connection rather than terminals. that and the output power is a bit low, but for a (fairly) inexpensive building block and backup that's not a huge issue.