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Building a 24 V battery bank: Using 12V batteries is much cheaper, but is it worth it over using 24V batteries?

There are a few vendors with EU warehouses but I don't know much about them. There are quite a few European members here with direct experience that would be able to answer those questions. Search this forum (see top right of the page) for "EU Warehouse" "Europe Warehouse" etc. It comes up quite a lot !

On the 1 cranky Cell in a pack issue... I did have 1 pack where 1 cell would not charge over 3.2V no matter what, active balancing etc was no help... all the other cells would go higher to compensate for the "pack level voltage". As soon as the charging stopped, the higher cells kept dumping into that one low cell, over a short period of time this actually "dragged" the pack down. I had to swap out that one cell because ultimately it even affected the entire bank (but only slightly). This particular battery pack I built (yrs ago) used "bulk" grey market cells and there were no tests or reports other than shipped at X.XXX volts.
 
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CHARGE PROFILE:
Absorb/Bulk:
27.6 for 45 minutes (3.45vpc) (some call this boost)
Equalize: OFF
Float 27.5V (3.437vpc)
MIn Volts: 21.2 (2.650vpc) (Also a good cutoff for Inverter)
Max Volts: 28.6 (3.575vpc)
Rebulk Voltage: 25.6 (3.200vpc)
End Amps: (Allows for full Saturation at set Float Voltage, then as A drops to this point to trigger the transition to FLOAT mode.)
(*1): End Amps is calculated from the LOWEST AH Battery Pack in a Bank. IE: (100AH X 0.05 = 5A 280AH X 0.05 = 14A.)
NB: EndAmps = TailCurrent. Different manufacturers use different terms for the same thing.

Just have a question for you Steve - why do you float at 27.5V (3.437vpc)?
Looking at the charts you've posted that would be about 99-99.5% which seems pretty high in a working system that would be under load. Just curious as most of the info I've read shows others floating in the 26.8-27.2 range.

BTW thanks very much for all the info you provide in your posts and resources...I am a long time Midnite Classic user who is just switching over to Lifepo4 and it's very much appreciated.
 
Just have a question for you Steve - why do you float at 27.5V (3.437vpc)?
Looking at the charts you've posted that would be about 99-99.5% which seems pretty high in a working system that would be under load. Just curious as most of the info I've read shows others floating in the 26.8-27.2 range.

BTW thanks very much for all the info you provide in your posts and resources...I am a long time Midnite Classic user who is just switching over to Lifepo4 and it's very much appreciated.
The moment that the incoming charge stops the battery cells immediately start to settle which is expected with LFP. Float can continue to service loads once the batteries are no longer taking a charge, until solar input can no longer satisfy demand. The batteries never stay at that SOC as loads start the discharge process and usually by the time that starts the cells have already settled down to 3.390 +/-. Simply put, they don't get to stay @ 3.400 for very long at all and when they first reach "100%" and start to float, the internal balancing is still going on to a point for an hour or so, which is what I observe with my bank, across all the packs.

check this out, you may not see signatures.
Steve_S-Tech: My Final Config for Midnite Classic SCC & JKBMS' w/ Large Bank (works amazingly well) Includes Charge Profile & BMS Config

Hope it helps, Good Luck
 
I'm building a 24V 400 Ah LiFePo4 battery bank. My first choice would be to get 2 x 24V 200 Ah and do 2p. I've found a unit that looks good at LiTime.

Then I saw that 4 x 12V 200 Ah in a 2s2p config is a lot cheaper. But is it worth the savings? Then I will have the potential risk of getting unbalanced batteries over time. Not sure about how much of a problem this is in real life. LiTime make it seem like a non issue. They even have examples of 4s4p configs without using any external battery balancers.

If I make sure to do some battery maintenance once a year, will that take care of it? I'd fully charge each of the four batteries separately.

Separate question: if you do 2s2p, what are the pros and cons of connecting the two midpoints together? What I mean is you first do two pairs of 2p that you then connect in series, so technically I guess you call it 2p2s.
I'm gathering 12 volt, 100 AH Redodo batteries right now for a battery bank. Redodo supports up to 4P4S for 20+ KWHR of storage with off the shelf batteries. I'm just getting started so I may limit myself to 2P4S for right now as I have a lot of work to do. Plus battery prices seem to be dropping like a rock. If you take advantage of their periodic deals you can get a 12 volt, 100 AH battery for about $205 plus tax with free shipping. A month ago it was about 10% higher. Its hard for me to justify trying to source cells and BMS systems (which seem to be hard to source) for that kind of $$. I've got solar frames to fabricate and house rewiring to accomplish to make all of this work. Battery cost seems to be about 30% of the project. I'm going to try and setup a hybrid setup. I have very reliable grid power but its getting expensive, rising in cost a lot faster than inflation. Plus I have space and can get cheap used solar panels for a ground mount system. I have been studying the various battery sellers and it sure looks like Litime and Redodo and perhaps Power queen are all the same manufacturer. My dealings with Redodo so far have been superb. They are very responsive.
 
I'm gathering 12 volt, 100 AH Redodo batteries right now for a battery bank. Redodo supports up to 4P4S for 20+ KWHR of storage with off the shelf batteries. I'm just getting started so I may limit myself to 2P4S for right now as I have a lot of work to do. Plus battery prices seem to be dropping like a rock. If you take advantage of their periodic deals you can get a 12 volt, 100 AH battery for about $205 plus tax with free shipping. A month ago it was about 10% higher. Its hard for me to justify trying to source cells and BMS systems (which seem to be hard to source) for that kind of $$. I've got solar frames to fabricate and house rewiring to accomplish to make all of this work. Battery cost seems to be about 30% of the project. I'm going to try and setup a hybrid setup. I have very reliable grid power but its getting expensive, rising in cost a lot faster than inflation. Plus I have space and can get cheap used solar panels for a ground mount system. I have been studying the various battery sellers and it sure looks like Litime and Redodo and perhaps Power queen are all the same manufacturer. My dealings with Redodo so far have been superb. They are very responsive.
I'm strongly leaning towards the DIY side, but not completely won over yet. Trust in the sellers is the biggest issue with doing DIY from China.

Here in Europe my cheapest off shelf alternative would be the LiTime 12V 200 Ah. I can get a set of four for $2125 USD including VAT and shipping. If I go the DIY route I would get 40% higher capacity and at the same time 15% cheaper. But of course I have to build them myself with the risk that entails. Depends on the mindset I guess. I'm a DIYer at heart, so I don't mind. And then it will be natively 24V (not 2 x 12 V), meaning that each BMS makes sure all the 8 cells of the 24V are in balance. With two 12V packs in series, there is no such guarantee and a risk that the two packs drift apart in voltage over time and become unbalanced. This is not optimal, but to be honest I'm not sure how big of a problem this really is in real life. I felt that I got some evasive answers from LiTime when I chatted about this, as if they are not sure themselves.
 
Be aware that DIY may present some difficulties, namely when components get a bit stubborn (like a BMS, for example).
 
Looks like you got lots of answers to this question!

This is a snag with using multiple LIFEPO4 in series or parallel as unlike flooded or AGM they have their own BMS that can sometimes throw a battery out of balance and messes with the entire bank.

To prevent that I suggest using fewer batteries and a larger battery capacity. May be more expensive but less headaches.

I recently replaced three 125AH AGM and considered using two 200AH LIFEPO4 but considering I live off grid full time and can't have my system go down I decided to go with a single Enjoybot 400Ah LIFEPO4 for that reason and I get more than double the amp output for a bigger inverter.

Good luck!
 
Looks like you got lots of answers to this question!

This is a snag with using multiple LIFEPO4 in series or parallel as unlike flooded or AGM they have their own BMS that can sometimes throw a battery out of balance and messes with the entire bank.

To prevent that I suggest using fewer batteries and a larger battery capacity. May be more expensive but less headaches.

I recently replaced three 125AH AGM and considered using two 200AH LIFEPO4 but considering I live off grid full time and can't have my system go down I decided to go with a single Enjoybot 400Ah LIFEPO4 for that reason and I get more than double the amp output for a bigger inverter.

Good luck!
Why did you choose that over having redundancy?
 
Why did you choose that over having redundancy?
I have three systems for redundancy. My main system is 400 watts solar and 400Ah LIFEPO4 and I have 400 watts solar on a 200Ah power station and a 200 watt recharging station with a 200Ah Lifepo4.

I prefer that set up to one large battery bank because if one system fails for any reason I still have power to get by on until I find the problem or replace the failed component.

I also have several portable solar panels and power stations I keep charged in the event I need more power on low sun days and to take camping.
 
There are a few vendors with EU warehouses but I don't know much about them. There are quite a few European members here with direct experience that would be able to answer those questions. Search this forum (see top right of the page) for "EU Warehouse" "Europe Warehouse" etc. It comes up quite a lot !

On the 1 cranky Cell in a pack issue... I did have 1 pack where 1 cell would not charge over 3.2V no matter what, active balancing etc was no help... all the other cells would go higher to compensate for the "pack level voltage". As soon as the charging stopped, the higher cells kept dumping into that one low cell, over a short period of time this actually "dragged" the pack down. I had to swap out that one cell because ultimately it even affected the entire bank (but only slightly). This particular battery pack I built (yrs ago) used "bulk" grey market cells and there were no tests or reports other than shipped at X.XXX volts.

I've officially joined LiFePO4 nerd club. Made the order today from Luyuan in China. 16 x EVE 280Ah grade B and 2 x JKBMS JK-B2A8S20P. Building two 24 V units.

Thanks for all the support and tips, you are great asset here on the forum.

Will keep you updated with how it goes, once the stuff arrives approx two months from now. I suspect I will have some questions about the BMS. :cool:
 
Looks like you got lots of answers to this question!

This is a snag with using multiple LIFEPO4 in series or parallel as unlike flooded or AGM they have their own BMS that can sometimes throw a battery out of balance and messes with the entire bank.

To prevent that I suggest using fewer batteries and a larger battery capacity. May be more expensive but less headaches.

I recently replaced three 125AH AGM and considered using two 200AH LIFEPO4 but considering I live off grid full time and can't have my system go down I decided to go with a single Enjoybot 400Ah LIFEPO4 for that reason and I get more than double the amp output for a bigger inverter.

Good luck!

I live alone off-grid and very remote. Absolutely wonderful in the summer, pretty stressful in the winter. I've been there for 8 years now and feel very exposed if something should fail. Winters in Sweden can be harsh. So I'm slowly building up several systems for redundancy. One thing I decided this year was to invest in an over capacity in solar panels. I went from 1.9kW to 5.5 kW of panels on my roof. I can easily manage on 1kW, if the sun shines all the time. So the idea is that they will give me enough power even when it is over cast or raining. Unlike batteries, solar panels never wear out (30+ year life span). That way I can have lower capacity batteries, because they don't need to cover my use for more than a day or two.

My lead acid battery system (8x 12V 100Ah = 9.6 kWh) is starting to fail now after 8 years of use. Two batteries already dead. So now I'm investing in LiFePO4 instead. I decided to go the DIY route. I know, it might sound stupid for something I need to rely on, but I have an electronics engineering background, so I think I can pull it off. Plus I'm low on savings. Today I ordered 16 x EVE 280 Ah grade B cells and two BMS though Luyuan on Alibaba. I will build two 24 V units of 8 cells each, so in total 13 kWh. If play nice with those units and not top charge or bottom discharge I might have 10 kWh of useful capacity, which is HUGE improvement over my current system where I rarely go below 80% SOC to extend lifetime, so that's only a useful capacity of 2 kWh. I understand your reasoning with having few batteries so that fewer things can fail. But I prefer to have two parallel units. If one fails hopefully the other will still work.

Multiple units in parallel is normally not problem, and will not make the batteries unbalanced. But multiple units in series without a BMS between them might lead to imbalances. In theory. I have no practical experience of how common that problem is though for LiFePO4. But I can tell that my lead acid system (2s4p) have batteries that are seriously out of balance, even though lead acid is said to balance itself if you equalize charge every now and then. But then my batteries is way past their due date, so maybe that's not strange.

I have looked at A LOT of energy storage systems. At one point I decide to learn how to make my own lead acid batteries, but eventually gave it up. Toxic mess. I was into compressed air for a while. And cogen (combining heating and electric generation) through a Stirling engine or Peltier modules. Pumped storage. Fly wheel. But in the end it is hard to beat batteries.

I also keep two petrol generators for worst case scenarios. I heat my home with firewood, so that part is no stress at all. Cold inside? Light a fire!

Good luck to you too! Hope to stay in touch and share ideas.
 
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Just when I thought I would end up manually balancing my 4S2P 12 volt battery setup, I find this:

An automatic balancer for assembled 48 volt battery packs using 12 volt batteries. $54 for each set of 4S string of batteries.


This is by PowMr which I believe is another brand of Growatt. PowMr is also selling 12 volt batteries with prismatic cells and a built in BMS.
Sure this all takes up a little more space to obtain 5 KWHR of storage, but still its all packaged and it doesn't cost a bunch of $$ like rack batteries.

A PowMR 100 ah battery for $219.

Now I really don't see a downside to assembling 12 volt batteries. Plus I get to have cool names on my batteries like Redodo, PowMr, and LiTime. Who makes up these names! :)
 
Just when I thought I would end up manually balancing my 4S2P 12 volt battery setup, I find this:

An automatic balancer for assembled 48 volt battery packs using 12 volt batteries. $54 for each set of 4S string of batteries.


This is by PowMr which I believe is another brand of Growatt. PowMr is also selling 12 volt batteries with prismatic cells and a built in BMS.
Sure this all takes up a little more space to obtain 5 KWHR of storage, but still its all packaged and it doesn't cost a bunch of $$ like rack batteries.

A PowMR 100 ah battery for $219.

Now I really don't see a downside to assembling 12 volt batteries. Plus I get to have cool names on my batteries like Redodo, PowMr, and LiTime. Who makes up these names! :)
Just be aware some of these balancers are known to emit a high pitched whine, if your battery is going to be in your living space.
 
Just be aware some of these balancers are known to emit a high pitched whine, if your battery is going to be in your living space.
I have multiples, they do. Don't sleep next to it.
 
High pitched whine... That's good to know!
Fortunately it is not near any sleeping quarters. I'll set it up and see how all of this goes.

Do you have that particular brand, the PowMr, or do you have something else that doesn't look like that?
Is the PowMr unit good, or are there better units?

Thanks!
 
High pitched whine... That's good to know!
Fortunately it is not near any sleeping quarters. I'll set it up and see how all of this goes.

Do you have that particular brand, the PowMr, or do you have something else that doesn't look like that?
Is the PowMr unit good, or are there better units?

Thanks!
I have a few of this one.. but I think they are all made at the same place.

61OGfL+mv+L._SL1500_.jpg
 
So they basically work ok? If so, that seems like a bargain.
I bought one. It worked fine for about 6 months in my hot Texas garage, then all the numbers on the LCD readout started to go wonky and report incorrect readings. It seemed to still be working, in that it was distributing current from one battery to another as expected.

I wrote to them on Amazon and explained the situation. They sent me a replacement, for the last 2 months or so, so far so good. I'll see if makes it through the winter and another hot Texas summer.
 
For me knowing each of the off the shelf cheap units have very limited visibility of the cell voltages and ability of changing the BMS settings will keep my in DIY.
 
For me knowing each of the off the shelf cheap units have very limited visibility of the cell voltages and ability of changing the BMS settings will keep my in DIY.
Nothing at all wrong with DIY. The BMS's are better, the cells are likely better, the ability to fix / troubleshoot is better.
 

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