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Building a PV Shedding Controller for AC Coupled Solar

I’ve set up dozens of systems with SMA that have between 2 and 4 kw PV / 100ah of LiFePO4. There have been zero issues to date. The way the REC-BMS works with the Sunny Island means that there cannot be a scenario where the battery is full AND fully charging, the Sunnyboys are well ramped down before the battery is full.

Good to hear. I've only used AGM.

But what about load dump?
4kW of PV cranking out full power to supply 4kW of load. Battery full. Then load shuts off.
Doesn't that put 4kW, 80A, into the 100 Ah battery for a couple seconds?
 
Good to hear. I've only used AGM.

But what about load dump?
4kW of PV cranking out full power to supply 4kW of load. Battery full. Then load shuts off.
Doesn't that put 4kW, 80A, into the 100 Ah battery for a couple seconds?
Yes, in theory it does. That is the worst case scenario and puts 0.8C into a battery that can handle 1C for a couple of seconds. I haven’t seen that cause problems.
 
When your battery is at fully charged (“float”) voltage, there is plenty of time to ramp down AC coupled inverters.
What grid profiles are you using? I am using IEEE 1547 default 2015.

I have heard the California Rule 21 profile might be better for AC coupling when operating without the grid.
 
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Well, I turned off AC Coupling and my system is working fine now. The strings of panels just turn on and off as needed to support the load and keep the batteries full. I have struggled for 1 1/2 years now to get the PV working while off grid. The first issue is the panels would not come on and produce power at all. Enphase fixed that with a firmware upgrade.

Next I was able to get one string to work, but when additional strings were started up all the PV would shut down. The strings would only start up again if I power cycled the string.

So apparently the Schneider is sending the IQ8+ something that causes it to shut down and only come up again after a hard power cycle. I think the IQ8s might respond OK if you vary the frequency within it's percentage curtailment range. There is apparently another "panic shutdown" signal that must get sent under some circumstances. Under California rule 21 I believe the range from 60 to 60.5 is used to curtail production. There is also an emergency shut down that is more like 63 hertz that causes the micro inverter to shut down immediately and not turn back on.

Of course I am just guessing here, because nowhere does Enphase or Schneider actually document how any of this actually works and how the various inverter settings might affect the AC coupling behavior. There used to be "High Resolution" data available on the Enphase system that you could use to track the frequency and see what was going on. Enphase removed this information from the installer screens and apparently have no plans to put it back. Sorry for the inconvenience was their reply to questions about this.

Maybe knowing what I know now, I can explore how the various inverter setting might be affecting this. For example the "Maximum Charging Rate" in my system is used by me to set "The desired rate at which I want the batteries to charge in a normal on grid charging operation". Does this setting also mean "If AC Coupled Charging Exceeds this amount, immediately and permanently shut down all Micro Inverters until they are power cycled"? I don't know.
 
What grid profiles are you using? I am using IEEE 1547 default 2015.

I have heard the California Rule 21 profile might be better for AC coupling when operating without the grid.

For AC coupling, you definitely want frequency-watts. Rule-21 is such. It continues to do anti-islanding.

Some SMA inverters have an offgrid setting without anti-islanding, also wider voltage and frequency.

Enphase fixed that with a firmware upgrade.

Next I was able to get one string to work, but when additional strings were started up all the PV would shut down. The strings would only start up again if I power cycled the string.

So apparently the Schneider is sending the IQ8+ something that causes it to shut down and only come up again after a hard power cycle. I think the IQ8s might respond OK if you vary the frequency within it's percentage curtailment range.

I read that an IQ8 firmware update in recent months made AC coupling work. Possibly less aggressive anti-islanding.

There is apparently another "panic shutdown" signal that must get sent under some circumstances. Under California rule 21 I believe the range from 60 to 60.5 is used to curtail production. There is also an emergency shut down that is more like 63 hertz that causes the micro inverter to shut down immediately and not turn back on.

I think Rule-21 frequency watts is 100% at 60.5 Hz, ramped down to 0% at 61 Hz. May drop off line fast, even instantly, if zero load and battery inverter overshoots slightly beyond 61 Hz. I see the overshoot with my offgrid Sunny Boys, haven't tried the Rule-21 setting of newer SB -41 yet.
 
What grid profiles are you using? I am using IEEE 1547 default 2015.

I have heard the California Rule 21 profile might be better for AC coupling when operating without the grid.
My system isn’t grid connected.
 
The graph in https://diysolarforum.com/threads/b...oller-for-ac-coupled-solar.80666/post-1042422 shows large sudden battery current changes that are consistent with the micros only turning fully on and off.
The was my PV load shedder working. If I just turn off the "AC coupling" on my Schneider Inverters, this brute force on/off method is actually working fine. Maybe I should just consider the problem solved? The problem is that I was hoping that getting rid of the excess solar might help the AC Coupling work better so it could fine tune production to match consumption. I can run string 3 with AC coupling enabled. Unfortunately, it seems that once I turn on strings 1 and 2 production drops to zero and stays there until I hard boot the micro inverters. I personally don't have any type of frequency logger. It might be easier to solve this issue if I could see what was going on instead of just guessing. It appears that the Schneiders are causing the micro inverters to shut down. Turning off AC Coupling makes everything work, but if my load shedder glitches, I have no fail safe.

You should try the default IEEE 1547 2018 profile.

I am going to try rule 21. I am also going to also try turning on the SOC control. I am happy with my voltage driven charging cycle, but maybe I can get SOC to work properly too.
 
I am going to try rule 21. I am also going to also try turning on the SOC control. I am happy with my voltage driven charging cycle, but maybe I can get SOC to work properly too.
CA Rule 21 profiles can also work but there are many different versions now, so it may take time to find the best for your system. The IEEE 1547 2018 default profile is newer superset. It would be best to get freq-watt working with SOC control for smoother operations. Frankly, with the appropriate SOC settings for freq-watt, your system should be able to handle large load turn off without significant issues (e.g. bat ovp) even without the PV shedding relays. BMS can typically handle 1X charging current for at least several seconds (enough time for freq-watt response) even when the SOC is high.
 
The was my PV load shedder working. If I just turn off the "AC coupling" on my Schneider Inverters, this brute force on/off method is actually working fine.
Is it possible that the iQ8 are communicating with each other ? there is that 5-min grid integrity check upon turning on. Are the iQ8s shutting off within this 5-min or immediately ?
 
I also have this little guy coming in a few weeks. I couldn't see paying big bucks to get an $8.00 part faster.


I think the Chinese Photographer didn't know the Hz was supposed to be right side up, not zH. If I were looking at a gauge with Chinese markings, I would probably get it wrong too.
 
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Some new Information

I did some testing today and was able to sort out several issues.

About a week ago I changed my settings to use the SOC control. At one point I was having problems with SOC not being reliable. This could have been due to a bad connector cable. My SOC does not seem to have errors anymore after I worked on the cable connection.

I was having a problem when I allowed more than one string to operate at the same time. I thought this might have something to do with the "Max Charge Current" allowed. So I increased this setting from 15% to 60%. Mid summer in the worst case I have 9000 watts and the inverters will need to push about 170 amps into the batteries. With that change I was able to get all three strings to operate at the same time. The only down side is that the charging rate will increase after a power failure and the batteries will also charge quickly (around .5 or .6 C max depending on conditions) while using AC Coupling to recharge the batteries. The charging current will still get limited some by hitting the absorption or bulk voltage limit. It appears that the inverter is attempting to use those settings and Frequency / Watts to charge the battery as closely as possible to what it does during a normal AC charge. So next I turned the AC coupled function back on.

Once I had the strings staying on, I was surprised that they would charge all the way up to 100% even though I had set the Max AC Coupled value to 90%. I'm not sure the setting of the AC Coupled charging limit actually does anything. It appears that the frequency / watt function doesn't actually get triggered until the battery voltage exceeds the absorption volts.

Next I noticed that when the Schneider started to ramp up the frequency, the PV inverters did not back off until they all went to zero all at once. I updated my IEEE 1547 2015 profile to IEEE 1547 2018 instead. I heard the 2015 is all or nothing and 2018 does frequency / watts. It says this is the right profile to use in PA, if your system was installed after Jan 1, 2022 anyway so I really should be using that one. With that I actually get the Frequency / Watts to work. I did not yet update the Schneider with the 2018 profile. I probably should so the tow systems have the best possible compatibility. I tested this with a single string running. It appears that with one string the Schneider can easily manage the output with the Frequency / watts function. It appears that it actually looks at the charge voltage in the battery section of the configuration and will back the current off to keep the volts from exceeded the absorption value. Once the battery it totally full, if the frequency climbs high enough the PV shuts off completely.

Finally, I retested with all three strings running. At this point it was late afternoon and the array was no longer producing anywhere near the max power. I found that it would get the batteries full and then the taper back when Frequency / watts was applied. Eventually the voltage would get too high and all the strings would turn off.

So knowing what I now know, this my plan to make some adjustments. First, it appears there is now no reason to shed string three. I plan to wire this string to always stay on. Then I will shed string 2 based on the aux relay from inverter 1, and string 1 from the aux relay from inverter 2. The reason I give priority to string 3 is that it has panels that face both east and west. The other string are only west facing. I don't have the ideal roof for solar, but I do get good afternoon sun when i use the A/C in the summer. My winter production sucks.

I did notice that the ramp rate on the new profile is much more gradual. It takes about a minute for the panels to fully ramp up now (plus the 5 minutes before they even start to produce anything). It seemed like that ramp rate was removed from the old profile when Enphase did their firmware upgrade. So with the old profile everything turned on all at once. I don't think it used to do that. The current would spike and then everything shut down. Starting any of the panels up again then required power cycling the strings.

So now I would say that I have the AC coupling fully working. Even without my shedding box I don't think anything really bad would happen, but at mid-day I did notice that when all three strings turned on it would quickly push the voltage up to the point where all the panels would then quit. At least with the other changes I made, this was not a permanent shut down. After 5 minutes they would come on and run for 20-30 seconds and shut down again. Not very efficient for getting the batteries recharged. More batteries would probably solve this problem. My plan for now it to do some more testing to see at what point I should shed strings 1 and 2 to make sure the inverter can push the incoming current into the batteries without an overvoltage condition causing the frequency watts to turn all the PV off.

It might be a week or so before I have time to look at this again. For now I am happy. This was major progress.
 
Once I had the strings staying on, I was surprised that they would charge all the way up to 100% even though I had set the Max AC Coupled value to 90%. I'm not sure the setting of the AC Coupled charging limit actually does anything. It appears that the frequency / watt function doesn't actually get triggered until the battery voltage exceeds the absorption volts.
That seems odd. Perhaps there is another overall (i.e. not just for AC coupled charging) setting for max SOC charging limit?

I did notice that the ramp rate on the new profile is much more gradual. It takes about a minute for the panels to fully ramp up now (plus the 5 minutes before they even start to produce anything). It seemed like that ramp rate was removed from the old profile when Enphase did their firmware upgrade. So with the old profile everything turned on all at once. I don't think it used to do that.
Slow ramp up is another enhancement (along with others like like freq-watt and voltage/frequency ride-through) in the default 2018 profile based on newer standards. I doubt you had slow ramp up with default 2015 profile based on older standards that did not require slow ramp up. The slow ramp up and ride-through requirements were added to the newer standards after POCO's found that large number of home solar systems suddenly turning on and off actually made the grid less stable.

So now I would say that I have the AC coupling fully working.
Great progress! Good to hear the new grid profile and freq-watt working. Hopefully you can get the SOC based AC coupling figured out. It would be great if you could post your inverter settings at some point.
 
I doubt you had slow ramp up with default 2015 profile based on older standards that did not require slow ramp up. The slow ramp up and ride-through requirements were added to the newer standards after POCO's found that large number of home solar systems suddenly turning on and off actually made the grid less stable.
I sure seem to remember that the IQ8 inverters were ramping up slowly before the recent firmware upgrade. Possibly, the ramp up had been over ridden in the firmware. A part of the firmware "fix", may have been to remove the override and respect the ramp rate (or lack of one) in the grid profile.
 
My Settings:

Nothing Special here.

Controls.PNG

AC Coupling On
Recharge SOC 95 - Doesn't seem to make any difference

Rec harge.PNG

Battery Type - Custom
Charge Cycle - 2
SOC Control - Enabled works better with SOC
Battery Bank Capacity - 300 Ah
Maximum Charge Rate - 60% If the actual charge rate when AC coupling exceeds this, the inverters shut down. Hard reboot is then required.
Absorption Set Point - It appears that they will attempt to keep the voltage under this value when charging by using Frequency / Watts.

Battery.PNG
 
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