Changes are coming to the Solar Industry

[robby]

A couple of months ago I had a conversation with a knowledgeable person in the ESS market and the Subject came up as to why battery companies are starting to jump into the Inverter Market and Vice Versa.

If you have not been following companies like Fortress Power are now starting to make their own Inverters and now Briggs & Stratton has bought out Simpliphi Batteries so they can couple the batteries to their new Inverters.

I am going to keep this short, so what I was told is that there are changes coming to the Industry. It seems like Solar has gotten the governments full attention and more rules and regulations are coming to every State. I am told that UL9540 is staring to be interpreted in a more specific way in that Battery and Inverters being certified to work together is being interpreted in a more literal way. Your Inverter must be UL certified to work with your battery and the two will only pass inspection if they are together. And I am told that this is not just a California thing.

BTW don't shoot the messenger, I am just as puzzled by this as you are. The person I spoke to did not have the time to go into to many details but he said there is more to this than he is willing to discuss and he said that I should expect to see more Tier 1 battery companies starting to sell Inverters under their brand name or merging with companies that make Inverters or vice versa. He did say that the days of mixing and matching components is going to slowly come to an end.

 

[Jim Burrow]

I wonder if the day of building your own solar system is coming to an end too. And if you want solar, you will have to put at $30k or more from a Solar company.

 

[Shimmy]

I wonder if the day of building your own solar system is coming to an end too. And if you want solar, you will have to put at $30k or more from a Solar company.

In Hawaii you have to use an approved solar company to be eligible for some rate plans and incentives.

Looking at photos here and in many other places, I get the issue; a lot of things are not installed in a safe manner. I haven't seen any NFPA statistics on solar or battery fires that would justify a wholesale change though.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I wonder if the day of building your own solar system is coming to an end too. And if you want solar, you will have to put at $30k or more from a Solar company.

Exactly what will happen unless you live in the middle of nowhere and are off grid.

 

[fafrd]

Several couple of months ago I had a conversation with a knowledgeable person in the ESS market and the Subject came up as to why battery companies are starting to jump into the Inverter Market and Vice Versa.

If you have not been following companies like Fortress Power are now starting to make their own Inverters and now Briggs & Stratton has bought out Simpliphi Batteries so they can couple the batteries to their new Inverters.

I am going to keep this short, so what I was told is that there are changes coming to the Industry. It seems like Solar has gotten the governments full attention and more rules and regulations are coming to every State. I am told that UL9540 is staring to be interpreted in a more specific way in that Battery and Inverters being certified to work together is being interpreted in a more literal way. Your Inverter must be UL certified to work with your battery and the two will only pass inspection if they are together. And I am told that this is not just a California thing.

BTW don't shoot the messenger, I am just as puzzled by this as you are. The person I spoke to did not have the time to go into to many details but he said there is more to this than he is willing to discuss and he said that I should expect to see more Tier 1 battery companies starting to sell Inverters under their brand name or merging with companies that make Inverters or vice versa.

He did say that the days of mixing and matching components is going to slowly come to an end.

I’m not sure those days were ever here. Sure, you might luck out and get an AHJ that would let you marry your own UL-listed battery to a UL-listed ESS/Hybrid Inverter, but that’s been the exception and not the rule.

When I spoke with PG&E about adding ESS on 2020, the only 3 batteries that qualified for their SGIP incentive were very expensive, so it really didn’t matter that you could choose between them when designing your ESS.

More importantly, while rules for installation of solar were eventually relaxed to allow owner-installation, installation of ESS is limited to licensed electricians.

So the Tesla model (or Enphase model) seems to be winning out as far as selection and installation of ESS and we should probably count ourselves lucky that the rules still allow marrying of any AC-coupled solar with any approved ESS+battery solution.

 

[PreppenWolf]

Government will control it and price people out of independence because independent people don't like Government. Anything that makes you less under control is something Government will try to take away.

 

[Shimmy]

So what are the chances the "cheap" branded batteries out there (EG4, SOK, etc) will do UL 9540 certification pairings?

 

[Kornbread]

Not long ago, Briggs and Stratton filed for bankruptcy and I'm not sure who owns them now. Corporations own corporations, own corporations ...

Solar energy was never truly about a healthier planet, it's about $money$.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Just one more reason to cut the cord completely.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

I wonder if the day of building your own solar system is coming to an end too. And if you want solar, you will have to put at $30k or more from a Solar company.

I don't think it will happen right away, but yeah, it's likely coming. The powers that be really don't like independent people. Then there's the whole idea of us paying for something once and using it for decades. It's kinda like all the software companies moving away from selling software to selling subscriptions to software. Or subscriptions to some feature on your car or truck. That's all about revenue stream.

I'm wondering how difficult it will be to even get replacement components at some point, even if your system is grandfathered. I really hope it doesn't go in this direction but I feel like we should expect it.

 

[robby]

So what are the chances the "cheap" branded batteries out there (EG4, SOK, etc) will do UL 9540 certification pairings?

I was wondering the same thing.
Maybe that is why SS keeps buying new Inverter models. Maybe they are looking for something that is worth getting UL listed so they can pair it with their EG4 battery.

 

[Solar Guppy]

If you have not been following companies like Fortress Power are now starting to make their own Inverters and now Briggs & Stratton has bought out Simpliphi Batteries so they can couple the batteries to their new Inverters.

Not quite true, Companies are looking to current inverter manufactures to provide white label products that will then have a company logo that matches the other components they produce, they are not designing anything beyond their core product, just reselling something that already has UL1741SA approval for example.

Enphase, Telsa and Generac get around allot of the regulatory issue as it is all "one" manufacture. UL9540/UL9540A is specifically to allow different manufactures to be approved. I have no first hand knowledge of someone whom had and approved UL9540 inverter battery pairing being turned down by AHJ, as that is exactly what the approval is for. If that is the case, CA will force compliance as they have done in the past by overruling NEC requirements ( fire lane spacing on roofs comes to mind ) in CA

In general the market for mixing and matching for UL9450 has been economically close to a complete failure, the quantity of systems sold come no where close to the regulatory costs, not to mention the cost of development is never recovered. I think there is to much hype and hope that some how regulations will fix the issue, which is, it makes no economic sense to have battery systems where there is a grid ( not discussing DYI, but listed components ) and never will, unless the grid is going to cost $1 kwh.

I know of no US engineered inverters coming to market, everything is built in China, some to spec with minimum order requirements, most are just rebadged products. Even previously tier 1 companies have thrown in the towel, and just do contract based ( no engineering ) now.

 

[robby]

Not quite true, Companies are looking to current inverter manufactures to provide white label products that will then have a company logo that matches the other components they produce, they are not designing anything beyond their core product, just reselling something that already has UL1741SA approval for example.

Fortress Power did design two Inverter Models to be certified for use with their batteries.
In Simpliphi's video they hint to the same reason.
I don't claim to be an expert on UL9540, in fact I find the whole thing a be bit confusing.
Anyway we will see what happens over the next 2 years.

 

[Solar Guppy]

Fortress Power did design two Inverter Models to be certified for use with their batteries.

I know first hand that is not the case

Anyway we will see what happens over the next 2 years.

Much sooner for some products

 

[robby]

I know first hand that is not the case

Please elaborate because I know first hand that it is the case.
I am not talking about if they designed the Inverter themselves or out sourced it. That is not info I am privy to.

Much sooner for some products

 

[fafrd]

California CPUC just passed NEM3.0 making it clear all new solar installs one year from now will need an ESS at least sized to offset consumption over non-daylight hours or adding grid-tied solar won’t make any sense.

The next 4-5 years are going to represent a period of innovation on the ESS / battery market unlike anything we’ve ever seen (akin to innovation in the solar market 15-20 years ago).

Anyone who needs an ESS now has no choice but to choose amongst the relatively expensive and limited offerings that are out there.

Those of us with the luxury to be in a position to bide our time awaiting new compelling ESS+battery offerings over the coming 2-5 years are likely to be rewarded with ever-improving capability at ever-lower pricing…

 

[Solar Guppy]

If you have not been following companies like Fortress Power are now starting to make their own Inverters

I am not talking about if they designed the Inverter themselves or out sourced it. That is not info I am privy to.

I am, and was a response to your initial post.

The market changes you are sharing are correct, there is all sorts of relationships going on, this is all being driven by UL9540 , NEC2020 adoption.

Battery companies do not have the resources to develop UL1741SA inverters or associated products like transfer switches, load shedding ect.

 

[Solar Guppy]

California CPUC just passed NEM3.0 making it clear all new solar installs one year from now will need an ESS at least sized to offset consumption over non-daylight hours or adding grid-tied solar won’t make any sense.

Or the market will just not view solar with batteries as worth the cost, which is a possible outcome. It will also kill the demand for EV's in area's of high electrical costs.

The Gridtie market was low hanging fruit, Mandated true net-metering, tax credits and short payback time frames. NEM 3.0 kills all of that, the free ride is over.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[fafrd]

Or the market will just not view solar with batteries as worth the cost, which is a possible outcome. It will also kill the demand for EV's in area's of high electrical costs.

The Gridtie market was low hanging fruit,

Mandated true net-metering, tax credits and short payback time frames. NEM 3.0 kills all of that, the free ride is over.

Beg to differ. With the CPUCs Preliminary Decision from a year ago, I was on the same page as you, but the final decision is far more favorable for the future of residential solar installation in California and I believe the industry will continue to thrive based on this much more balanced Final Decision.

I won’t repeat those arguments here - they are detailed in the NEM 3.0 thread.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[rodrick]

Exactly what will happen unless you live in the middle of nowhere and are off grid.

That why we’re getting out of these states that want to control everything. right now we’re looking .50 cents a gallon both gas and diesel tax jan1 thanks to our governor. thank god my nearest power is 10 miles away from our retirement property