Daly BMS Amazon store

[Will Prowse]

You replaced your faulty cells because there is an issue with your system. It has nothing to do with the balancing current of your BMS. You have mismatched cells, are using the cells in a high ambient temperature, or considering your capacity losses, are cycling your cells too low or too high. You cannot blame others when your system is not performing properly.



The orion 2 is used to manage 35kWh+ packs with various chemistries, typically connected to an inductive load, such as an EV motor. And 200mA is plenty.

You cannot blame the balancing current of your bms. It does not make any sense at all.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

You replaced your faulty cells because there is an issue with your system. It has nothing to do with the balancing current of your BMS. You have mismatched cells, are using the cells in a high ambient temperature, or considering your capacity losses, are cycling your cells too low or too high. You cannot blame others when your system is not performing properly.

View attachment 39591

The orion 2 is used to manage 35kWh+ packs with various chemistries, typically connected to an inductive load, such as an EV motor. And 200mA is plenty.

You cannot blame the balancing current of your bms. It does not make any sense at all.

I'm not blaming the balancing current.
And absolutely no intent to blaim!!

And if you do a daily charge of the cells, 80mA probably can be enough.

Result of 80mA being enough is that the whole thing is charged with 80mA.

Not more.
If you charge 10A, the 80mA doesn't really make a dent.

And yes, a daily top balanced pack, that can be enough.

The "trick" of not using full capacity, not charging to 100% SOC but 93% results automatically with no top balancing.

And after one or 2 months you do a top Balance..
All those 80mA per day that it didn't balance, adds up.

It would be crazy to think that a system build to do everyday a little bit suddenly can do all of it in one day. It can't.

More is better.
The price of higher balance amperage is just the cost of additional resistors.

So, Yes, every day top Balance, a small burn off current is enough.

The 3 X 152Ah cell replacement was a result of wrongly recharge of one cell after capacity test, and 2 from defective active balancer BMS.
Last year March/April.

The 4 X 280Ah are the result of working without BMS too long.
Why?
Dumb Daly broke, smart Daly not matured.
And I really could not find a good BMS in my budget range.

Electrodacus would be great, if he had 48v
Chargery was at that time under fire
Not much so much options as today. (Or less promoted in Google)

Alternative I found was DIYBMS, without soldering skills.. that's a tough one.
It took me months to build.
(Others probably can work a lot faster, using microscope doesn't help with speed)

In that period I've seen many people make the same mistakes I did.
Extracting from the YouTube (not only yours) tutorials that it's "just adding more cells".
Perhaps wishful thinking, or seeing things we (I) liked to see.

Your tutorials are good, and you are really professional YouTube teacher.
Thank you for your time and efforts!!! I really enjoyed most of them
Some of your older (populair) videos are missing the knowledge you now have.

Things we learned in a year (amongst many other things) is that tape isn't enough compression to prevent delamination.

It's not bad advice to group cells and tape them together.
It's not complete.

During those videos you use the screw/bolts that are delivered with the cells.
We now know studs/headless bolts are a far better solution.
Using locking agent increase the strength of the thread, reduce the risk of overtighten.
And as you can feel it's firm, automatically give more comfort in tighting properly, without the fear of damage the cells.

I don't know if it's possible to edit posited YouTube video's, where a few lines of text at the end can help sharing the new insights gained.

It would be fun to see the electric system of your golfcart.
I assume the main contact is made with contactor and not Mosfet based.
(As forklifts are)
Old knowledge in new environment

I matched my cells within 0.001mili ohm internal resistance difference.
In my book that's "matched cells"

Additional internal resistance after mounting the bus-bar is small, and same equal over the serie connections.
In my book, that not possible to improve.
Any new contact will add slightly in resistance, as long as it's the same, it's Ok.

I might have bad luck with my Chinese cells.
One or more might have internal issues that can't be traced with Internal resistance meter.

As I can't test anything else, and just observe the behaviour, that's what I do and make desission based on that information.

I share a lot.
And receive of reactions (in and outside this forum) from other LiFePO4 DIY installers, who have similar issues.

Im not alone!
I started to think I was the only one having this issues.
Even bought yr1034 meter to confirm the installation and Internal resistance.

Sadly, Many other users have the same trouble.

A "well matched pack" isn't that easy as it seems for us DIY.
Buying cells in China already is an adventure, getting good ones is a role of the dice.

With that knowledge, it's easy to say things about a "well matched pack"
When it's almost impossible for an individual to test and locate a less good cell.
4S single cell isn't that difficult.
4S, 2 or 3 parallel already makes it more complex.
Try S16, 3 parallel....

Result of this all is that many installation aren't perfect.
They don't have "Grade A" cells, but cells who barely reach Grade B level.

Sure, in optimal situation 80mA is enough for balancing.
And once a week top balance with 80mA probably will work.

When you want the higher number of cycles to stop the charge at 93%, the imbalance grows each day.
It doesn't need a rocket scientist to see that 80mA isn't going to be enough to keep the pack happy.

Add that many users have less perfect cells, and a balance of a few A isn't that crazy for +1000Ah pack.
It's probably the most efficient way to be able to use the battery one bought.

Ideally, sure, matched cells.
As individuals, impossible to test.
And real matched cells, Grade A (or High quality grade B) are way beyond budget.

 

[Toddmccollam]

You are absolutely wrong, writing that the BMS is the cheapest part in the installation.

A huge misconception.
It is the part that will protect your expensive cells.
Like ABS or airbag for a car.
You should not need ABS, but are happy to stop in time when you do use it.
Compare that to balancing.
A weak ABS breaking system will get you into accidents. (+ Your driving style and rest of the car)
Compare this to your installation, good contact of the bus-bar, and the charger (solar/hybrid/ ac-dc inverter, etc)
Ok. Your "car" gets in a tricky situation and the ABS isn't able to stop you on time. (Discharge the too high charged cell) after the crash, your seatbelt and Airbag makes you step outside alive.
That is to compare with the stopping mechanism of BMS.

And you are absolutely right that it never should be used.
Even balancing should hardly be needed.

When you know you can use just 50% of lead acid, using 70% of LiFePO4 is already a huge profit.

Car comparison again.
When you drive slow, careful and be on constant high alert, ABS is never needed, like seatbelt and Airbag, except extreme situation.

That is like using 70% of the cells.

When you do want to use 90%..
You need your ABS, Seatbelt and airbag in top quality and functionality.

So if you want BMS to follow the "regulations" sure, it's the cheapest part in the setup. Cheaper then the Bus-bars.
But don't expect it to really work.
80mA is cute, sweet and it does balance.
Works perfectly for 25-40Ah setup.
400Ah? 1000? Not so much.
1000Ah should have equivalent, makes it 2A balancing...

Turn off (airbag)
50A system, Mosfet works fine.
250A?
It will be in a constant overload situation, and just waiting to snap. If your car would not be able to start without airbag..
And it's a constant stressed part...
Many cars won't be driving today.

This is known, and anyone who stops to think about it can understand that there are limits how far you can stretch a system for low capacity.

In the car industry it is known that mosfets, way cheaper solution then contactors, aren't reliable.
We are not inventing the wheel here.
Old knowledge in new setup.

Why do you think a starter contactor is there? And not mosfet?
(SSR, solid state relay)

It was a dumb move from QUCC to use a starter contactor in their BMS.
Again a situation where it's abused beyond its intended use.

Starter contactor is build for shorter time contact, not continuous.

Abused like Mosfet, and so it failed.

Will all starter contactor fail in a year, abusing them as normal contactor?
Probably not. But it won't last your LiFePO4 lifetime.

The new version does have a normal contactor.
Yeey, they have seen the light!!!!

.....

There are good Daly BMS out there.

Will is extremely positive and strong in his encouragement to buy Daly.
And up to 100 A, he is correct.
The "dumb" units are a "set and forget" quality product.

"Their" smart is OEM, and was released Pre-mature.
As owner of one imperfect 150A "Smart"..
Unusable for my installation, as it requires to pre-charge the inverters.
(The "dumb" 250A didn't have that problem)

If that one didn't fail, I would still be using it. But it did.
After some investigation it turns out many units fail the first year. Many.

So sad @Will Prowse doesn't do endurance test.
I sure like to know which one he uses in daily base as main protection.

The need for BMS is clear.
Also what it needs to do.
And sure, you can abuse components beyond intend.
it will work for a while, and if that is the safe feeling you like to have, buy one!!

Just don't expect it to really protect your cells.

Last month I rebuilded my LiFePO4 battery.
With the bad experience (defect and unusable/pre-mature) of the Daly my setup have worked without proper BMS too long.
it did have active balancer that I monitored closely via Bluetooth.

I used the "70%" and "drove like an old lady"

Yet I ended up buying 4 new 280Ah cells.
They aren't fully defective, re-usabble. They do have reduced capacity what would affect the capacity of the whole 560Ah setup.

$ 400,- extra spend...
Unneeded if I wouldn't have been better informed about BMS and the huge difference there is between S4 and S16 setup.

Daly isn't bad.
QUCC isn't bad.
both have products that never would have been released in USA or Europe. The companies would have been sued for malpractice.
Too high % fails to do it's job.

you are a smart man.
I'm sure you realise that the reactions in this forum aren't based on one YouTube video.

Most of us don't make YouTube video's.
I like to but mis the skillset to do any video editing.
I even fail in fast forward a section.

That's how good most people's video editing skills are.

I own/ have owned 7 different BMS.
And the new "spare" set have a simple mosfet based BMS.
$8,- including transport.
The maximum load will be 20A.
Charging with one 300w solar panel, PWM controller

And in this setup, the cheap BMS is perfect choice.

For our home, off grid, 1016Ah, +50 kWh LiFePO4...
That's a whole different ballpark.

It's pain wrong and stupid to even think to use the same products, just "upscaled" and expect it to work.

@Will Prowse , please do make a video about the huge difference between "RV" or "emergency power" (lower capacity) setup and high capacity installation.

FYI, a 100Ah LiFePO4 cell puts out over 1000A at a full short.
Tenfold.
Remember that when you are playing with the cells, that one 280ah cell will onload with +/- 9000 watts.

If you ever have played or seen electronic device/equipment using 5000 watt and more, and the amount of security related systems are installed to operate them safely...

You can do the math.

What do you expect for 100 bucks?
And how high do you expect the quality and R&D from Chinese companies is?

One Daly split port , using contactors to switch is a perfect solution that keeps discharge available if charge is too high and stoped.
One quality 300A breaker is $125,-
Cheap knock-off $45.
That already brings you over 100$
Next step is the balancing, where 80mA is good for 40ah cells.

You do your math on how much you need for your setup.

My 1000Ah will need 2.5A to be able to keep the pack balanced.

It happens to be that I have 2 sections, 456 and 560Ah
Each section 1.5A passive balance and 1A active balancing.
Total of 5A.

This is after a year of learning and replaced 3 152Ah and 4 280Ah cells.

Replacements that would not have been needed if I didn't get the wrong impression from Will and other solar gurus how size doesn't matter.

It does.
It massively impacts the tools and equipment you need to use.

You are planning to build 4 X S16 280Ah.
Over 1000Ah battery.

Don't be misguided by thinking it's just 10 X 100Ah.

I really do wish I had video editing skills.

If you need to gain the knowledge from YouTube...
Sadly not a lot of good videos out there with +1000Ah installations.

Way to high jack a thread. So do you have a BMS suggestion or not?

 

[Will Prowse]

Way to high jack a thread. So do you have a BMS suggestion or not?

I would use an Overkill Solar BMS. It has everything (available here). If you want a more sophisticated system for switching inverters on/off, use a SBMS or Chargery.

I would love to hear if anyone has other BMS recommendations

 

[Toddmccollam]

I would use an Overkill Solar BMS. It has everything. If you want a more sophisticated system for switching inverters on/off, use a SBMS or Chargery.

My main website has them under the BMS section: click here

It maxes out at 100A continuous charging current and I need at least 130. I was avoiding Chargery because it looks more like I'm building my own BMS than buying one, but if it's the only option I'm sure I can figure it out. Never heard of SBMS. This one? https://lithiumbalance.com/products/s-bms/

 

[Will Prowse]

It maxes out at 100A continuous charging current and I need at least 130.

Just realized that. Oops.

I would use a SBMS personally. And control inverter/SCC with a signal wire. Then you will not have a current limitation. No FET's to burn out either.

 

[Toddmccollam]

Just realized that. Oops.

I would use a SBMS personally. And control inverter/SCC with a signal wire. Then you will not have a current limitation. No FET's to burn out either.

Oh you mean http://www.electrodacus.com/ don't you. Have they added a 48v BMS? I don't see anything over 24v/8s on their web site.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Way to high jack a thread. So do you have a BMS suggestion or not?

Sure I have, and have given.

I don't know S-BMS, it seems the same setup as Batrium.
That one would have a price tag of about $800-$1200,- depending on the options.
I hope S-BMS is cheaper

Alterative a split port 20A Daly, that controls 2 contactors.
The mosfets only deal with the few watts load of the contactors, their value is the limit of your charge/discharge.

 

[Will Prowse]

Oh you mean http://www.electrodacus.com/ don't you. Have they added a 48v BMS? I don't see anything over 24v/8s on their web site.

Gosh dang it you're right! I always forget that. Sorry for wasting your time with my posts, I just woke up. Oops

How about buying more cells and making two packs with 100A overkill BMS, then putting them in parallel? That would work nicely.

 

[Toddmccollam]

Gosh dang it you're right! I always forget that. Sorry for wasting your time with my posts, I just woke up. Oops

How about buying more cells and making two packs with 100A overkill BMS, then putting them in parallel? That would work nicely.

It's for an RV, I don't have room. And I probably have more battery power than I need already, just to get enough cells to get to 48v. Since I'm not in a hurry, they haven't even started building the RV yet, and I've already ordered the QUCC, my current plan is to test it out. It seems like it should be easy to present it with over and under voltages, and over and under temps, and test the state of the relay. I probably won't have a way to test over amperage. That doesn't tell me anything about longevity of course but it will be interesting.

I could switch to 24v if I really wanted to. Although then I'm running 200A power cords around 20 feet...

Oh I checked, 150A. Which is one reason I wanted to go with the 48v, 120a at 48v is a lot quicker charging than 150a at 24v.

 

[Just John]

I would use an Overkill Solar BMS. It has everything (available here). If you want a more sophisticated system for switching inverters on/off, use a SBMS or Chargery.

I would love to hear if anyone has other BMS recommendations

If you want an all in one BMS that just works, Overkill is the way to go. Yes, it has limited current. It is FET based, and thus is an "all in one", but has great support and an even better warranty. Use parallel packs if necessary, or go up to their 48v BMS (currently backordered).

Not for everyone, but long term and much more of a DIY, I like the Electrodacus SBMS0. Why more DIY? Because like Chargery, it requires using additional equipment to handle shutting off charging or discharging in the event you get into a "protect the battery" state. That might mean using relays to turn off inputs or outputs, or it might involve selecting equipment that is amenable to being remotely switched. It's biggest drawback besides requiring more knowledge and additional parts, is that it is limited to 24v packs. It is however open source and open hardware!

 

[Toddmccollam]

If you want an all in one BMS that just works, Overkill is the way to go. Yes, it has limited current. It is FET based, and thus is an "all in one", but has great support and an even better warranty. Use parallel packs if necessary, or go up to their 48v BMS (currently backordered).

Not for everyone, but long term and much more of a DIY, I like the Electrodacus SBMS0. Why more DIY? Because like Chargery, it requires using additional equipment to handle shutting off charging or discharging in the event you get into a "protect the battery" state. That might mean using relays to turn off inputs or outputs, or it might involve selecting equipment that is amenable to being remotely switched. It's biggest drawback besides requiring more knowledge and additional parts, is that it is limited to 24v packs. It is however open source and open hardware!

Yeah, we just talked about those two, neither one can do what I need. I had dismissed Chargery earlier as being annoying complex looking (it's the same thing as the QUCC basically, a relay BMS). But their web site is down this morning so I can't check on them again. You can get higher capacity FET based BMSs, they just cost more. Daly and Heyo make them.

 

[Stepandwolf]

Andy's last video had to do with issues regarding the BMS. It was allowing cells to become overcharged. He contacted the manufacturer but I don't remember that leading to a solution. He seems to spend half his day fretting about his system and now he is unhappy with his Victron not being as smart as he wanted it to be. I do enjoy his videos and watch them all.

You could try going with 2 of these BMS in parallel. The 200A version states 100A charging so for your application you will need to 2 parallel, still combined price is little more than half the price of the $300 BMS. I haven't tried these as my projects are lower power mobile applications and have recently heard of this manufacturer.

200A Discharge 100A Charge Mosfets BMS

92.38US $ |Qucc Lifepo4 48v Bms 16s 200a Electric Car Motor Lithium Iron Phosphate High Current Overcharge Protection Board Equalizer - Battery Accessories & Charger Accessories - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Another option from same manufacturer is a latching contact relay bms. This version is a smart BMS that uses the XiaoXiang app. This does 200A discharge and 200A charge.

175.0US $ |Qucc Smart Bms Relay Contactor 7s 8s 10s 12s 13s 14s 15s 16s 17s 20s 200a Li Ion Lifepo4 Bms 24v 36v 48v 60v 72v Bluetooth App - Battery Accessories & Charger Accessories - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

This is a YouTube channel that used an earlier version of the relay BMS.

 

[Just John]

Yeah, we just talked about those two, neither one can do what I need. I had dismissed Chargery earlier as being annoying complex looking (it's the same thing as the QUCC basically, a relay BMS). But their web site is down this morning so I can't check on them again. You can get higher capacity FET based BMSs, they just cost more. Daly and Heyo make them.

Yes, I have 250 amp Daly BMS in both 12v and 24v. Biggest they make without a fan.

 

[Stepandwolf]

I need a BMS to charge 16 Lishen cells, and it needs to be able to handle about 150A charging current. The easiest solution seems to be a 300A Daly Smart BMS (300A discharge, 150A continuous charge). That's a pretty expensive BMS, they run around $300 for the smart one. So what's the best source? There's a DalyBMS Store on Aliexpress, A blmpow Official store, and an Amazon store (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08RRWFB7S). Prices fluctuate, the amazon one is a little cheaper right now, still ships from China. Has anyone ordered from them? Is there a better source?

Or feel free to suggest some other BMS if you like.

Thanks you.

Would the Victron Orion DC>DC help managed the charging load? I see them recommended whenever people are using their vehicle alternator.

 

[yabert]

I've already ordered the QUCC, my current plan is to test it out.

Good to know as It think this BMS with external contactor could be an excellent choice for high amps situation. Base on picture below, some BMS use a Kilovac contactor with coil economizer... nice!
I'm a huge fan of BMS with contactor and I don't trust FET based BMS for high amps application.
I often used the Zeva BMS in the past with great success, but I'm interested by your test with the QUCC.

There is reasons why the car industrie design Electric Vehicles battery with contactors and not with FET based bms.
This is true for GM, Tesla, Nissan, Kia, Mitsubishi.... for the others brands I have to open more battery

 

[Toddmccollam]

Would the Victron Orion DC>DC help managed the charging load? I see them recommended whenever people are using their vehicle alternator.

DC-DC convertors are used to charge from the vehicles primary alternator. They're low capacity since the primary alternator isn't sized with a bunch of extra capacity, and since it's a transformer. The Orion, for example, tops out at 400W which would take 35 hours to fully charge my battery. Secondary alternators made for charging batteries with a battery regulator can output the correct voltage and amperage for the batteries, and so be directly connected to the battery (or the BMS). And thus you can put out much more power, 6000-8000w in a van, more in larger vehicles.

A normal RV comes with 2 100ah 12v batteries, lithium or AGM, in which case 300-400w of charging is a decent supplement to the generator or whatever.

 

[yabert]

Good to know as It think this BMS with external contactor could be an excellent choice for high amps situation. Base on picture below, some BMS use a Kilovac contactor with coil economizer... nice!

I hope you will receive the new version

 

[Frank in Thailand]

Good to know as It think this BMS with external contactor could be an excellent choice for high amps situation. Base on picture below, some BMS use a Kilovac contactor with coil economizer... nice!
I'm a huge fan of BMS with contactor and I don't trust FET based BMS for high amps application.
I often used the Zeva BMS in the past with great success, but I'm interested by your test with the QUCC.

There is reasons why the car industrie design Electric Vehicles battery with contactors and not with FET based bms.
This is true for GM, Tesla, Nissan, Kia, Mitsubishi.... for the others brands I have to open more battery

I wish you where correct about Kilovac contactor, that would have been great....

As the price of one Kilovac is around $ 100-125, it's impossible.

There are Chinese knock-off that really look the same, with a pricetag of $ 25-35.
About $10 extra from the starter contactor QUCC used in their first design.

Down side to one contactor is that it will stop all, charge and discharge.
Balancing probably continues.

With split port the charge and discharge are 2 different channels, but requires 2 contactors.

 

[Frank in Thailand]

The Zeva BMS suggested by @yabert is about $250,- but requires additional ($120,-) monitor to configure

Does anyone know the pricetag for the S-BMS?

So far for quality options:
Orion, $ 1000
Batrium $ 800
DIYBMS $ 100 + contactor

Units without PCB at the cell (spaghetti wire)
Zeva $ 500 (incl shipping) (get based?)
Chargery $ 150 + Contactors
Dumb 20A Daly $35 + contactors

Depending on your preference, a BMS can be a really expensive part.

It wasn't a hijacking, just to show you insight what will probably really happen when you build your packs.

You had the misconception that BMS is the cheapest part.
And expected quality for a few bucks.

My "hijacking" hopefully cured this.

The quality of a kilovac contactor is indisputable.
One 250A unit is already $125,-
If you are OK with charge and discharge stopping at the same time (like the QUCC does) the cheapest quality solution is a small high quality dumb Daly BMS, and use the fets to switch the low capacity using (but high capacity switching) kilovac contactor.

For about $150 that is the cheapest, still high quality solution.

 

[Stepandwolf]

DC-DC convertors are used to charge from the vehicles primary alternator. They're low capacity since the primary alternator isn't sized with a bunch of extra capacity, and since it's a transformer. The Orion, for example, tops out at 400W which would take 35 hours to fully charge my battery. Secondary alternators made for charging batteries with a battery regulator can output the correct voltage and amperage for the batteries, and so be directly connected to the battery (or the BMS). And thus you can put out much more power, 6000-8000w in a van, more in larger vehicles.

A normal RV comes with 2 100ah 12v batteries, lithium or AGM, in which case 300-400w of charging is a decent supplement to the generator or whatever.

Because you said, "an alternator that puts out 120A," which is what we agree is a use for the Orion. I didn't comment on the rest of the configuration or whatever else you said in your reply?

 

[yabert]

I wish you where correct about Kilovac contactor, that would have been great....
As the price of one Kilovac is around $ 100-125, it's impossible.

Well, a single Kilovac contactor cost around that price, but when we ask quote for bulk quantity at my job the price could be around 70-80$ each.
So imagine the price for a BMS compagnie who is next door to the Kilovac shop.

About Zeva, I bought many time a BMS without the additional ($120,-) monitor. Simply ask for specific programing when order.
Of course the monitor is nice and with it you don't have to send back the BMS if you want a different programmation

 

[BabylonFive]

Since I never saw anyone say this: Mosfets are also never as good a connection as a contactor would provide, but a contactor requires continuous current to keep it connected, even if nothing downline uses the current (provides voltage at very very low current). The benefit of a magnetic latching relay is that it won't discharge your battery keeping the connection made continuously.

 

[Just John]

Since I never saw anyone say this: Mosfets are also never as good a connection as a contactor would provide, but a contactor requires continuous current to keep it connected, even if nothing downline uses the current (provides voltage at very very low current). The benefit of a magnetic latching relay is that it won't discharge your battery keeping the connection made continuously.

There are positive and negative consequences of everything, the negative being that once it is latched closed, if the BMS dies, it will never disconnect the battery.

 

[Toddmccollam]

There are positive and negative consequences of everything, the negative being that once it is latched closed, if the BMS dies, it will never disconnect the battery.

Apparently the contact in the QUCC, I don't know what it's called, tends to fail open though. Too much current and the contact will weld it in place. So that's a drawback. You'd think the BMS could monitor that and send an alert if it fails but I don't think it does. Anyway I got the QUCC BMS but the battery cells are about 2 months out still. The BMS doesn't look at all like the one the youtuber has.