here is a petition for interested people to sign requesting free access to all Australian standards.
https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN4101
https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN4101
diy off-grid regulation in Australia
- Thread starter Demlitup
- Start date
About time some action is taken to correct this.
For those wanting to know-
A foreign company, the US owned SAI Global were sold the rights to distribute Australian and NZ Standards a number of years ago and has been screwing us with ever increasing costs ever since. Whatever government numbat thought this to be ok is probably the real story!!
I see the web page for SAI Global now has this notice-
Standards & Legislation Store APAC – SAI Global Infostore
SAI Global Standards & Legislation provides 1.5 million Standards from 350+ publishers. Find your standards for APAC now & achieve strong business performance
infostore.saiglobal.com
"SAI Global Standards is now part of Intertek, a leading Total Quality Assurance provider to industries worldwide."
....no doubt a lower taxation region.....time to screw the US?
Warpspeed
Solar Wizard
I currently have a 100 volt system (thirty LiFePO4 cells) and its been operating for enough years to keep me in the original less than 120 volt category.
So what I "could" do is ground the centre point of my battery so its +/- 50v dc.
It would need some interesting redesign of the home built solar controllers, but it would then effectively become two 50 volt systems.
Many homes in Australia, including my own, are supplied with two or three separate 240v phases.
Its still considered to be a 240v system, even though there is 415 volts between phases.
I don't see how two 50 volt dc systems are any different than that in the strict legal sense.
I am sure a silver tongued lawyer might successfully argue that distinction.
So what I "could" do is ground the centre point of my battery so its +/- 50v dc.
It would need some interesting redesign of the home built solar controllers, but it would then effectively become two 50 volt systems.
Many homes in Australia, including my own, are supplied with two or three separate 240v phases.
Its still considered to be a 240v system, even though there is 415 volts between phases.
I don't see how two 50 volt dc systems are any different than that in the strict legal sense.
I am sure a silver tongued lawyer might successfully argue that distinction.
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Still illegal!!.... Only 12 & 24v systems come under the new lower voltage rules (38v?)
Even my 12v system contravenes some chapters I have seen because the number of panels exceed the power limitation.
PV is still ELV (120V)
BESS (batteries) are DVC-A (60V)
This is exactly why we need the standards to be easily accessible.
Just came across this thread.
Australian Standards are not laws and are only enforceable when called up by legislation. In other words there has to be Acts or Regulations under Federal or State legislation that call them up then they become referenced documents and they can then be enforceable. Sometimes the whole standard is not called but it would be a long winded explanation to give such an example.
Australian Standards are not laws and are only enforceable when called up by legislation. In other words there has to be Acts or Regulations under Federal or State legislation that call them up then they become referenced documents and they can then be enforceable. Sometimes the whole standard is not called but it would be a long winded explanation to give such an example.
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dangriffo32
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2022
- Messages
- 1
I have read the draft of the new standards. And my understanding of it is, any circuit directly connected to the circuit you wish to work on that is above 60v then makes the whole circuit illegal to work on without electrical licence. It mentions that for instance a charge controller with an input greater than 60v will then mean that the whole circuit then becomes dvc-b and requires an electrician to work on it.
It also means that as soon as you connect an inverter to the circuit, because it has the potential to produce 240v. The whole circuit then becomes dvc-b. So basically you can't run pretty much any panels in series or even use an inverter or it then becomes illegal for you to work on the system without a licence.
And because it's very hard to get any solar Panels that will charge a 48v battery and be below 60v you pretty much can't have 48v battery without an electrical licence either.
So all you can really do is have a 24v battery and charge it from solar panels in parralel. You can't even connect an inverter to it.
It also means that as soon as you connect an inverter to the circuit, because it has the potential to produce 240v. The whole circuit then becomes dvc-b. So basically you can't run pretty much any panels in series or even use an inverter or it then becomes illegal for you to work on the system without a licence.
And because it's very hard to get any solar Panels that will charge a 48v battery and be below 60v you pretty much can't have 48v battery without an electrical licence either.
So all you can really do is have a 24v battery and charge it from solar panels in parralel. You can't even connect an inverter to it.
houseofancients
Solar Wizard
so it seems the lobby from the electricians has won over there.
these rules make it effectively impossible to DIY anything solar
Warpspeed
Solar Wizard
Are you absolutely sure about that ?
The ELV (extra low voltage) limit has been raised from 60v to 120v for do it yourself projects.
You may have seen a draft of a proposed future change back to 60v, but as of now its still 120v as far as I am aware.
Anything is possible, but until they actually make another change, let's worry about that when it happens.
They cannot make laws retrospective. If the limit was 120v when the equipment was installed its still legal.
I do not have the latest copy of AS3000 here with me right now, but I have been told and read that 120v is currently the limit in Australia and New Zealand.
The ELV (extra low voltage) limit has been raised from 60v to 120v for do it yourself projects.
You may have seen a draft of a proposed future change back to 60v, but as of now its still 120v as far as I am aware.
Anything is possible, but until they actually make another change, let's worry about that when it happens.
They cannot make laws retrospective. If the limit was 120v when the equipment was installed its still legal.
I do not have the latest copy of AS3000 here with me right now, but I have been told and read that 120v is currently the limit in Australia and New Zealand.
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I’m glad you aren’t a licensed electrician.
Warpspeed
Solar Wizard
Never claimed to be a licensed electrician.
Are you ?
Are you ?
Who rattled your chain? My quote was aimed at @dangriffo32, who was providing misleading information. (ie, any inverter connected circuit needs to be installed by a licensed electrician)
The correct info is in post #31.
I install residential and mobile power systems and employ licensed trades as required. I haven’t read the standards, my information comes directly from people that specialise in this area. No point having a dog and barking too.
Interestingly the most dangerous electrical items i install are custom ignition systems that are over 100ka. Not covered by any legislation.
Re (35V DC and above is to be deemed hazardous and all conductor parts that can carry 35V or more will have to have earth alarms.)
Don’t know about that Requirement in Oz ie down to 35v DC, when the only earth guard I could find was for 60v to 300v Systems, and then you have to set up a system to link into your alarm system for remote monitoring. What earth alarms are there for a 50V System?.
( looking at (2x 500w 48V Panels in Parallel driving a 60amp PowMr Controller) Times 2, each driving a 24v 100 amp SOK Lithium, with an electrician connecting the 4Kw Inverter to the distribution panel and running the house cables.)
solarboxaustralia.au
Don’t know about that Requirement in Oz ie down to 35v DC, when the only earth guard I could find was for 60v to 300v Systems, and then you have to set up a system to link into your alarm system for remote monitoring. What earth alarms are there for a 50V System?.
( looking at (2x 500w 48V Panels in Parallel driving a 60amp PowMr Controller) Times 2, each driving a 24v 100 amp SOK Lithium, with an electrician connecting the 4Kw Inverter to the distribution panel and running the house cables.)
AERL EarthGuard Ground Fault Detection - EG-300
The AERL EG-300 EarthGuard Insulation Monitoring Device simultaneously monitors the unearthed PV Array (60-300V) & Battery Storage System (48/120V). Installed on the battery bus, the EarthGuard monitoring device satisfies the earth fault detection requirements of both AS/NZS 5033:2014 & AS/NZS...
solarboxaustralia.au
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
The regulations are pointless if people are unable to reasonably access them.
I get a licensed electrician to handle the AC distribution side of things. The rest I look after. Most sparkies I come across here haven't the foggiest idea about off-grid DC stuff.
I get a licensed electrician to handle the AC distribution side of things. The rest I look after. Most sparkies I come across here haven't the foggiest idea about off-grid DC stuff.
That there is nothing available on the market would have been of no concern whatsoever to those writing the standard, unless they wrote it knowing that the lack of availability would make compliance impossible.
Maybe the market will eventually provide something, but since (as usual) this ridiculous requirement will probably be unique to Australia, the only options will be expensive low volume units like the one you posted from AERL.
The reality of all this is that the most dodgy and dangerous DIYers will continue unabated, while those who wish to make an attempt to comply will either do so at great expense, or pay forget about DIYing anything and pay a professional, also at great expense, or throw their hands up in despair and not bother with it at all.
And thats the way we like it in Australia. You shouldn't be trying to learn anything for yourself. You should come home from work and sit on the couch and watch cricket or home and away. We don't want people learning or doing things for themselves.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Screw 'em. I've been learning and doing it anyway. And watching the cricket.
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
Seems a sad way to go, for an educated country with lots of great inventions and innovations in their history. The role of government is to do what WE want, not the other way around. If they stiffle innovation, no good will come of it.
Makes me more grateful for my own regualations that allow a home owner to do many things in their own home, some require testing/confirmation some lead to the insurance co asking for such. But at least we are no 'banned' from working on our own home, even if at our own risk.
I think this is where codes, and regulations mess up most, Risk, and assessing it.
My deck is 88 inches above the ground, and has no railing on one end. Code says it must have a railing. But the code writer does not have to clear the snow from the deck, I do. If I put the railing on that end, I will have to lift the snow over the railing all winter, 100% chance I will hurt my back or worse, 21 years of using the deck never fell off due to lack of a railing. 21 x 365 = 7885 days with zero mishaps. If they want a railing, then they can come and shovel the snow from then on, otherwise doing it my way, at my own risk.
Solar the same I guess, I read the codes, I follow good advice, use good equipment and monitor what I build, my home my risk.
Makes me more grateful for my own regualations that allow a home owner to do many things in their own home, some require testing/confirmation some lead to the insurance co asking for such. But at least we are no 'banned' from working on our own home, even if at our own risk.
I think this is where codes, and regulations mess up most, Risk, and assessing it.
My deck is 88 inches above the ground, and has no railing on one end. Code says it must have a railing. But the code writer does not have to clear the snow from the deck, I do. If I put the railing on that end, I will have to lift the snow over the railing all winter, 100% chance I will hurt my back or worse, 21 years of using the deck never fell off due to lack of a railing. 21 x 365 = 7885 days with zero mishaps. If they want a railing, then they can come and shovel the snow from then on, otherwise doing it my way, at my own risk.
Solar the same I guess, I read the codes, I follow good advice, use good equipment and monitor what I build, my home my risk.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
I'm in no way defending the insurance company requirement, but they are not just concerned about the risk to you personally. They are also considering other parties who may come a cropper falling off the end of your deck. Insurance is also there to cover for that liability.
It's one reason why I only have licensed and insured trades perform work at our home (if I'm not doing it myself). Getting "cheapo Dave's tree lopping" over may well end up in court and losing everything if something goes wrong while they are working on your property. We have imported some of the highly litigious nature often on display in the US.
I do think it would be better if:
- regulations stipulated only what meets code and not who is required to perform the task
- that regulations, which are developed and paid for by public money, be freely available to all and not placed behind ridiculous paywalls.
That said, it's not all bad. We do have a very efficient solar PV installation industry and some of the cheapest solar PV in the world. 1 in 3 homes have a solar PV system. We do have our fair share of shonks though (they are everywhere) and so govts will always be trying to find a balance to ensure people are not unreasonably taken for a ride.
It's often cheaper and safer to get a professional to install rooftop PV here anyway.
Batteries are different. That's where a DIY 48 V system can be significantly cheaper, at least at the moment.
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