Got Busted by Electrical Power Police..Now Need help with Permits

[Ampster]

The power company owns your service, not you

No disagreement about the fact that their authority ends at the meter. Building codes apply to anything after the meter. At least that is the way it is in California with the Investor Owned Utilities. Municipal Utilities may have different rules just like different states have different rules.

 

[Paul_R]

Actual ownership my end at the meter but the easement conditions typically do not. I don't think I want to chase this any further down the rabbit hole...?

 

[Ampster]

Actual ownership my end at the meter but the easement conditions typically do not.

You are free to give your power company more than they are entitled to. For the benefit of other readers, easements only give the power company the right to come on your property to maintain their equipment. Easements do not restrict your ability to generate your own power. Building codes apply to make sure, if you do generate your own power, that you do it safely.

 

[timselectric]

Grid tied connection always happens after the meter, anyway. The only power that the power company can enforce. Is disconnection of the service.

 

[120vjohn]

Some meters register injected energy as consumption, this is the way company prohibit injection.
Any grid tied inverter has built in anti island protection, but some providers ask for external protection, an anti island kit agreed by that company.
Fire safety regulations are in place for PV systems, if panels are placed on non combustible roof or ground rig not special fire protection class panels must be used.
If you use tin or ceramic tiles on metal frame, or concrete slab is no problem, is roof is combustible you must use first class fire protection panels.
PV systems are hazardous for firemen because is no way to cut off string voltage when is light outside, optimizers may be a solution, but they are proned to fail in harsh outdoor conditions, from my experience average life is 2 years.

You must pay attention how build and wire your system to minimize fire hazard, protect wiring from metal objects that can pierce insulation, be sure that water not sip inside of connectors, corrosion may end in fire, protect wiring from sun light as possible.
Avoid stupid things.
Can you see something stupid in those images?

 

[Ampster]

Can you see something stupid in those images?

Possibly but am envious that your codes allow exposed wires.

 

[Clifton]

The power lines are not publicly owned. At the very least it's trespassing on lines owned by a corporation. The Federal and State Utility Commission have all the power of a superior court to enforce rules and regulations. Connecting your inverter to their power lines without an agreement is prohibited, but I suggest you ask a laywer about that statute sht.

I don't need to talk to a lawyer, just need to read statutes. You make claims about trespassing. Type in " your state + revised statutes" or look up your utility companies in your state and see what they say before making claims.

These grid tie systems cut power when the grid goes down. There is no risk for anyone.

Here's what APS (one of two utility companies) in my state says....
"Systems less than 1 kW No APS application is required. Customer must still follow all code and local permitting requirements. Refer to Section 16.1 of the APS Interconnection Requirements"

Keep reading and they say they may want to see a disconnect switch. That is all.

Link to back up what I claim. https://www.aps.com/-/media/APS/APS...s/Understanding-Solar/InterconnectionApp.ashx

 

[foggysail]

I am surprised there are states that allow a solar installation without structural confirmation by a licensed structural engineer. OK--- so only a few panels so the building inspector does not care. And wiring without a licensed electrician? Wonder what an insurance company would say after a fire or is this happening in Romania?

 

[Clifton]

I am surprised there are states that allow a solar installation without structural confirmation by a licensed structural engineer. OK--- so only a few panels so the building inspector does not care. And wiring without a licensed electrician? Wonder what an insurance company would say after a fire or is this happening in Romania?

From hours of reading. The grid tie part is only with the utility company. Everything else is the ahj, city. To mount on a roof, you need engineering for the load calc on the roof. Getting permits is easy. My state will let you install everything your self including electric. I built a large shop with permits and did all the work myself. The inspector will catch what's not to code or shouldn't be.

 

[foggysail]

In my early years I strongly believed that people should be able to do anything they wished to their home....they owned it. Then later in life I earned both a Massachusetts journeyman and master electrician licenses and had the opportunity to see many jobs done by homeowners. Zip cord, the stuff found on lamps buried into walls by a homeowner who needed an extra outlet.

There are good reasons today requiring 8000 hours of on-the-job experience plus 600 hours of classroom training before one is allowed to even take the journeyman's license exam. And sure, there are those who know what they are doing. But homeowners do not have perpetual ownership of anything so poor workmanship done by someone who knows little about wiring will live on until maybe someone gets hurt along with the property because of that workmanship. Just my humble thoughts---

 

[timselectric]

In my early years I strongly believed that people should be able to do anything they wished to their home....they owned it. Then later in life I earned both a Massachusetts journeyman and master electrician licenses and had the opportunity to see many jobs done by homeowners. Zip cord, the stuff found on lamps buried into walls by a homeowner who needed an extra outlet.

There are good reasons today requiring 8000 hours of on-the-job experience plus 600 hours of classroom training before one is allowed to even take the journeyman's license exam. And sure, there are those who know what they are doing. But homeowners do not have perpetual ownership of anything so poor workmanship done by someone who knows little about wiring will live on until maybe someone gets hurt along with the property because of that workmanship. Just my humble thoughts---

Yup
I could write a book, on the things I have found.
And I am always amazed that more houses are not on fire.

 

[Supervstech]

My favorite find was from someone who used steel telephone wire insulated with tar, tied into some knob and tube wiring strung across an attic and poked out an eave to provide a backyard light…

 

[ChrisG]

My favorite find was from someone who used steel telephone wire insulated with tar, tied into some knob and tube wiring strung across an attic and poked out an eave to provide a backyard light…

Not an electrician but knew this was wrong at my new to me cabin. May have started as a 240v subpanel for baseboard heat but someone added 120v circuits. No ground other than a small neutral between panels that was bonded again in the subpanel to ground??? Anyway that is now ripped out and a new sub panel in place which has my critical loads in prep for my solar install.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

This is the kind of post that people read and think is true. There is no statute in Arizona. If you could post just one state with a statute on this.

13-1201
13-3724

 

[Ampster]

Arizona 13-1201 js a Reckless Endangerment Statute. How does that relate directly to the issue of connecting a UL listed GT zero export inverter?
The issue was whether there was a statute that prohibited connecting a GT inverter if you had a building permit.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Arizona 13-1201 js a Reckless Endangerment Statute. How does that relate directly to the issue of connecting a UL listed GT zero export inverter?

I didn't see the response in that context. The OP appears to be using non UL hardware. I have no doubt a prosecutor would use that statute if a non-UL piece of hardware created a hazardous condition.

 

[Ampster]

Yes the discussion has been all over the place in terms of fact scenerios. The OP only made one post five pages ago.

The easiest statute that makes a Non UL listed inverter illegal is most likely the building code. I think that was pointed out to the OP some time ago.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Yes the discussion has been all over the place in terms of fact scenerios. The easiest statute that makes a Non UL listed inverter illegal is most likely the building code.

Yah.

My local AHJ does not require permits, but it requires compliance with NEC 2017. My AZ utility requires an interconnect agreement for any size PV.

 

[Ampster]

My local AHJ does not require permits, but it requires compliance with NEC 2017. My AZ utility requires an interconnect agreement for any size PV.

The requirement of compliance is probably a building code requirement. The requirement for an interconnect agreement may not be a statute. At least that is my interpretation in California. The question I have been asking across several threads is if I have an appoved and finaled building permit for a GT inverter, is there a statute or code section that makes it illegal to run that GT inverter in zero export mode? So far no one has come up with the Penal Code section or other statute that specifically prohibits that fact situation in California.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I know DTE in Michigan showed up within a half hour of my testing my system and back feeding the grid once my permit was approved.

I also mistakenly during that 2008 big power outage flipped the wrong breaker on my 50kwh diesel generator and back feed the grid and it tripped the 200 amp breaker back off in a second.....I really doubt there is a residential inverter that can back feeding the grid and stay running. All you couch/keyboard engineers please prove me wrong....Laughing....don't get offended....I am wrong most times also...Have a great day...

I do agree you shouldn't back feed and even for a split and think the back feed through the step down transformer will become a step up transformer when back feeding creating a quick voltage spike on the high voltage line.

Please don't give users an idea by stating that you 'doubt' it will be an issue when in reality it is an issue - even in jest. You don't back-feed into the grid when the grid is down, ever. My dad knew people that died because of fuck-ups like this, and no I'm not going to spend time writing down the technical aspects of why this is the case. I'm also not a keyboard engineer - ask @Will Prowse, he's seen my credentials. Don't mess with the grid, ever. It's not a joking matter. Your last line shows why it can be an issue even for a split second - highlight that.