Grid Tie Victron ESS with DIY LiFePO4 Battery in Australia - Regulatory Issues?

[BipedalPrimate]

Let us all know how it goes.

 

[Grakat]

No real progress.

Contacted a local sparky & provided all the circuit diagrams but they balked at me doing the DC side.

Another fly in the ointment is that the Victron Multis are not approved by the CEC to feed in to the grid. So will have to replan based on the Fronius PV being on the AC In of the Multis & include a Victron Energy Meter.

Next plan is to pay a Licensed Electrical Inspector for some consulting work to review the design. Hopefully that will provide some confidence to a electrician to do the work.

I'm still learning here so could have this all back to front

Looking at the possibilities of doing something like this as well. My only question is whether the Multiplus can be connected to the grid of if it is only not allowed to export to the grid. My understanding of the Multiplus is that is is an inverter/charger and is not able to direct export to the grid as it has an internal transfer switch which means its either inverting, charging, or passing through but not exporting back to the grid.

If I am wrong, is the solution to put the Fronius on the AC in side and then have the Fronius sitting between the Multiplus and the grid. To me it would be more logical if possible to have the Fronius after the Multiplus and using the latter to trigger the Fronius to come online to assist.

Lastly I dont want to feed anything back into the grid, I just dont want to buy from the grid unless absolutely necessary ie weeks of rain.

 

[BipedalPrimate]

Apologies for this rather long post.

Multiplus II 48/3000/35 Inverter is CEC listed as approved as Stand Alone Inverter With Generator Input Battery Only. This means my local electricity distributor will not allow it to be grid connected in an ESS configuration.

The approval certificate is Certificate SAA181339.pdf attached.

That certificate shows compliance with:

IEC 62109-1 Ed 1.0,
IEC 62109-2 Ed 1.0,
AS 62477.1:2016 and
AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Inc A1

The CEC document CEC-inverter_listing_categories_2021.pdf (p2 attached) indicates the Multiplus II 48/3000/35 Inverter meets the requirements as a Multiple Mode Inverter and hence approved as a Grid Interactive inverter.

When I asked my Victron Distributor why it not allowed as a Grid Interactive inverter, I got this response:

Please see response back from the CEC to Victron in relation to their application for grid connect :

"AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 was written/developed with a new clause/Appendix for stand-alone inverters that can connect to the grid and draw power from the grid and but not export.

The CEC listing offers 2 options for:

• Stand-alone inverter with grid input
• Stand-alone inverter with generator input

To qualify for the Stand-alone inverter with grid input – the inverter needs to be certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Appendix M which was specifically written for stand alone inverter with ac grid input. Otherwise if the inverter has not been certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 Appendix M, then the inverter is approved as stand-alone inverter with generator input, in which the AC input port should only be connected to a generator and not the grid.

Manufacturers are allowed to choose which of the 2 categories they would like the inverter to be approved as long as the correct certification documents are submitted during the application process.

If Victron does not wish to have the stand-alone inverters certified to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020, Victron can select the Stand-alone inverter with generator input - this will require an appropriate statement advising that for AU market for fixed household energy storage installations, the AC input port cannot be connected to the grid and only to an generator.

Please note that in Australia, the compliance of inverters to AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 is monitored by the CEC with our product compliance and testing program, Grid Operators that the inverters connect to, AEMO - the Australia Energy Market Operator, and Electrical Safety Regulators (who have inspectors to carry out site inspections).

Kind Regards,
CEC"

An additional comment from my local Victron distributor is: "Victron is not tested to AS4777.2.2020 Appendix M and it is highly unlikely that they will be."

Conclusion is that Victron have made a marketing decision to not compete in the Australian Grid Tied ESS market.

However, see next post for a possible workaround.

 

[BipedalPrimate]

Possible workaround.

A user based in NZ on the Victron Community blog has installed numerous Victron systems & is mostly subject to the same standards as Australia, has been using a Grid Protection Relay to 'protect' the grid and overcome the regulatory issues with Victron.

So I asked my DNSP (Distribution Network Service Provider - the company that actually delivers electricity to your meter) for a list of approved Grid Protection Monitoring Relays that will safely protect the grid when my solar installation is operating in intentional islanding mode.

Reply as follows:

"Ausnet does not have an approved list of Grid Protection Relays, however the following relays are suitable and the most used within the industry for the purpose:

Regards,"

Now these are not cheap - the ABB is over AUD$4000 and the Tele Haase is about AUD$1000. They are designed for 3 phase supplies but the Tele Haase can be used on single phase - there could be others.

Ausgrid and other DNSP's have a larger list which this a subset of - Google "Grid Protection Relay Australia".

So it seems possible - see next post for design with Grid Protection Relay.

 

[BipedalPrimate]

It seems that a Grid Protection Relay will disconnect the grid using the settings in the previous post - those settings have a wider tolerance than the Australia A Grid Code settings in VE Config. This suggests that a Victron will probably disconnect from the grid before an approved Grid Protection Relay will.

However, the Victron Australia A Grid Code settings do not show ROCOF Up or Down, Vector Shift positive or negative nor sustained 10 Min Over Voltage, suggesting some additional parameters are required which Victron cannot handle.

So, incorporated a Grid Protection Relay into the design as follows:

Bypassed Licensed Electricians because if they install this and a Licensed Electrical Inspector say "No", they would be on the hook to make it compliant at no additional charge to me - hence Licensed Electricians are very reluctant to be involved. This is, after all, something they probably have not come across before.

So, I asked a Licensed Electrical Inspector to review this and they said it looks fine.

I will use that to assist with getting a Licensed Electrician to do the work.

 

[BipedalPrimate]

I have a chap coming in a week who is a mate of a mate who recently closed a battery / solar business just to make sure I can do what I want.

Ghosty - what did your 'chap' (the mate of a mate ) advise?

 

[BipedalPrimate]

is the solution to put the Fronius on the AC in side and then have the Fronius sitting between the Multiplus and the grid.

Grakat,

Something like this?


There is some doubt whether a Grid Protection Relay would be required - but I think it would be.

Fronius Smart Meter tells Fronius Inverter to up/down regulate PV production to maximise 5kw grid feed in limit, .

Fronius inverter reports PV production to Cerbo.

Victron Energy Meter detects current flow from/to grid and (if Cerbo ESS is set up correctly) tells Multiplus to invert from battery when loads exceed PV production or charge battery if PV production exceeds loads.

Otherwise, excess PV above Multiplus invert/charge demand is fed back to grid.

Disadvantage is there will be no PV production with PV inverter on AC In when grid fails so it depends on how reliable your grid is.

Advantage is you are not constrained by the Victron 1:1 rule when PV is on AC In.

 

[Grakat]

Grakat,

Something like this?
View attachment 140376

There is some doubt whether a Grid Protection Relay would be required - but I think it would be.

Fronius Smart Meter tells Fronius Inverter to up/down regulate PV production to maximise 5kw grid feed in limit, .

Fronius inverter reports PV production to Cerbo.

Victron Energy Meter detects current flow from/to grid and (if Cerbo ESS is set up correctly) tells Multiplus to invert from battery when loads exceed PV production or charge battery if PV production exceeds loads.

Otherwise, excess PV above Multiplus invert/charge demand is fed back to grid.

Disadvantage is there will be no PV production with PV inverter on AC In when grid fails so it depends on how reliable your grid is.

Advantage is you are not constrained by the Victron 1:1 rule when PV is on AC In.

Yes this is similar to what I am thinking, except for figuring out the grid protection relay. There may also be an ~40m cable run between the Fronius and the Victron gear as the house will most probably get the grid connected stuff while the 14m x 14m shed and awning gets the offgrid gear.

 

[ivanjh]

"AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 was written/developed with a new clause/Appendix for stand-alone inverters that can connect to the grid and draw power from the grid and but not export.

New guy here (please be gentle).

I was under the impression a Multiplus II certainly "can" export (ESS mode 2 and 3) and thus very much interact with the grid.

Making it a "multiple mode inverter" under AS/NZS 4777.2:2020

multiple mode inverter
inverter that operates in more than one mode, for example having grid-interactive functionality when grid voltage is present and in stand-alone mode when the grid is de-energized or disconnected

Meeting CEC's "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only" requires "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020" instead of "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 APPENDIX M" (which, as you mentioned, it already has via SAA181339).

Not just that, but AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 also explicitly states:

A stand-alone inverter is not a multiple mode inverter that may operate in stand-alone mode.

To my ignorant eyes, both that CEC response and the entire CEC registration are off the mark.

Given those (publicly stated) requirements Multiplus II would qualify for CEC registration as "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only".

Does it not have the right "flavour" of "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020" required for CEC's "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only"? Or a finer point of such certification?
It seems unlikely that the wrong "type" was applied for with CEC (but I've seen stranger things).

 

[BipedalPrimate]

both that CEC response and the entire CEC registration are off the mark.

I agree although there has been no advice from Victron nor CEC as to what is preventing registration.

Another trick for us all is this snapshot from the Rev 05 09/2022 version of the Multiplus-II 230v manual:


This little disclaimer is just below the table of symbols used on the enclosure - usually something I skip over.

So, remember to read 'generator' whenever you see 'grid', but the manual refers to 'mains' multiple times and even suggests you can feed back to the 'mains'. Try that with a generator and see how you go.

 

[Grakat]

New guy here (please be gentle).

I was under the impression a Multiplus II certainly "can" export (ESS mode 2 and 3) and thus very much interact with the grid.

Making it a "multiple mode inverter" under AS/NZS 4777.2:2020


Meeting CEC's "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only" requires "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020" instead of "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 APPENDIX M" (which, as you mentioned, it already has via SAA181339).

Not just that, but AS/NZS 4777.2:2020 also explicitly states:


To my ignorant eyes, both that CEC response and the entire CEC registration are off the mark.

Given those (publicly stated) requirements Multiplus II would qualify for CEC registration as "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only".

Does it not have the right "flavour" of "AS/NZS 4777.2:2020" required for CEC's "Multiple Mode Inverter - Battery Only"? Or a finer point of such certification?
It seems unlikely that the wrong "type" was applied for with CEC (but I've seen stranger things).

I think the main issue is not that the inverter itself is compliant but rather that Victron have not made any application to the CEC for approval for this inverter to interact with the grid. In my opinion the CEC is a body that really should be given a new mandate as they seem to offer opinions in some areas that conflict with established standards. Their interpretation of ELV vs the standard is a case in point.

 

[KangaRooted]

I think the main issue is not that the inverter itself is compliant but rather that Victron have not made any application to the CEC for approval for this inverter to interact with the grid. In my opinion the CEC is a body that really should be given a new mandate as they seem to offer opinions in some areas that conflict with established standards. Their interpretation of ELV vs the standard is a case in point.

I think you are spot on, and to this point, it will be a tall order to get any qualified electrician to sign off on the inverter knowing this (if it is not approved). Difficult - but I guess not impossible - again open to interpretation if you add 3rd party devices. The sparky doesn't want to be left stuck holding the ball. The Victron Multiplus II supports islanding mode when configured properly. The grid protection relay is advisable for a misconfigured system. Guaranteed someone would go to jail if they got the back feed bit wrong and electrocuted someone further up the line. It's probably the bit that matters the most.

 

[Grakat]

I think you are spot on, and to this point, it will be a tall order to get any qualified electrician to sign off on the inverter knowing this (if it is not approved). Difficult - but I guess not impossible - again open to interpretation if you add 3rd party devices. The sparky doesn't want to be left stuck holding the ball. The Victron Multiplus II supports islanding mode when configured properly. The grid protection relay is advisable for a misconfigured system. Guaranteed someone would go to jail if they got the back feed bit wrong and electrocuted someone further up the line. It's probably the bit that matters the most.

I have given thought about the back feeding, and I do think that there is a bit of hype in regard to back feeding. For example, i have a 230V connection which comes direct from my Pole Transformer, and then the primary side of the PT is connected to an 11KV supply. I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong in this regard, but I'm not thinking a Multiplus running at 230V would make very much 11000K on the primary side if it back fed the grid in an outage situation. The Multiplus would probably have its own significant emotional event and trip on over current as in essence I tried to power the grid from my Multiplus.

As the Multiplus is not allowed to see the grid here in Australia I will most likely put a changeover relay on the grid side of the Multiplus. That will then be compliant with our codes.

 

[davidpb153]

I'm very interested in this setup. I was wondering if you ever progressed? Australian regulations seem seriously ott. Not allowed to install a light or a power point?

I was also wondering about a different way around the regulations.

Looking at my energy use, every day, there is a regular draw by the fridge and an external freezer (like 0.1 kW, but it is always on so over a day, it adds up and is the biggest user of electricity when the sun is down over a year). I try, but fail to always use my dishwasher/washing machine when the sun is up. The AC is fine in summer (it's on when the sun is on), but draws a lot in winter in the evening. So basically, if I could get a battery to power my fridge, it would cut most my usage. If it could power fridge, washing machine, dishwasher and split system, it could cut almost all use.

Would a sparky be willing to add a dedicated circuit (frankly I could wire it myself if it weren't for the regulations) to a 3 or 4 appliances from a diy battery (through a separate switch box). The battery would be charged through AC from the main house circuit as described by OP. I could easily program a raspberry pi to choose when to charge it taking into a account solar production and weather? It seems low risk for a sparky.

Basically can I have a home that has both on and off grid electricity?

 

[BipedalPrimate]

I have given thought about the back feeding, and I do think that there is a bit of hype in regard to back feeding. For example, i have a 230V connection which comes direct from my Pole Transformer, and then the primary side of the PT is connected to an 11KV supply. I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong in this regard, but I'm not thinking a Multiplus running at 230V would make very much 11000K on the primary side if it back fed the grid in an outage situation. The Multiplus would probably have its own significant emotional event and trip on over current as in essence I tried to power the grid from my Multiplus.

As the Multiplus is not allowed to see the grid here in Australia I will most likely put a changeover relay on the grid side of the Multiplus. That will then be compliant with our codes.

Multiplus II has two internal relays that disconnect the grid circuit in the event of grid falling out specs for the Grid Code selected so probably not a problem.

 

[BipedalPrimate]

Would a sparky be willing to add a dedicated circuit (frankly I could wire it myself if it weren't for the regulations) to a 3 or 4 appliances from a diy battery (through a separate switch box).

From what I can tell from regulations, that would work BUT:

1. you will have to find a sparky that will do it - they tell me they are very busy in my neck of the woods.
2. it may easier to get approval if you separate the charging device from the inverter as that way there can be no 240v connected to the grid even in the event of any device failure. You may want to consider a bypass switch that will power your loads from grid whilst isolating the inverter - just in case you need to work on inverter or batteries.

I'm very interested in this setup. I was wondering if you ever progressed?

Approached 3 electricians so far. First two umm'ed and argggh'ed but declined after thinking about it for weeks - as mentioned they said they had too much work.

3rd electrician now having a serious look at it based on his questions. But it has only been 1 week

 

[davidpb153]

Just wondering. Take this idea to the extreme:

Add a new switch box. Have 1 circuit that is tied Solar - Grid with feedback as per a normal house setup with existing solar (what I currently have). Except that switch box only has 1 output - one plug (plus perhaps one connection to an automatic transfer switch if possible). From that plug, you can charge the multiplus.

The multiples now feeds the old switch box, which feeds the house.

(Perhaps separate charging device and inverter as you suggest)

The sparky has to do almost no wiring. It's a quick job, single day at most (install one switch box and one plug, re-route solar and grid feed through the new switch box). Maybe a sparky can find time for a shorter job. Ideally, they would be to add an automatic transfer switch, so it can choose to power home from the grid if there is a problem with the inverter.

 

[KangaRooted]

Just wondering. Take this idea to the extreme:

Add a new switch box. Have 1 circuit that is tied Solar - Grid with feedback as per a normal house setup with existing solar (what I currently have). Except that switch box only has 1 output - one plug (plus perhaps one connection to an automatic transfer switch if possible). From that plug, you can charge the multiplus.

The multiples now feeds the old switch box, which feeds the house.

(Perhaps separate charging device and inverter as you suggest)

The sparky has to do almost no wiring. It's a quick job, single day at most (install one switch box and one plug, re-route solar and grid feed through the new switch box). Maybe a sparky can find time for a shorter job. Ideally, they would be to add an automatic transfer switch, so it can choose to power home from the grid if there is a problem with the inverter.

Still the same issue .... is it within 'the (stupid) regulations' and even if its a 50/50, can you find someone to sign off on it and ratify it with the electrical wholesaler in your area. Getting a multiplus to work on the grid is not hard; it's all those regs.

Look at the options for the sparky:

Sparky does the job and can't get the ESS system certified - Sparky in danger of you not paying them - massive headaches.
Sparky does the job and doesn't get the ESS system get it certified - his ass is in a sling by you (even if you say it wont be) and the electricity wholesaler - massive headaches.
Sparky doesn't do the job and says they are busy or its too hard or it wont meet regs - Sparky goes onto the next paying job - Sparky not in trouble with the wholesaler, you might hate on him, but he still avoids his ass in a sling - not a massive headache.
I know I'm missing the obvious other (nice to have) option:
Sparky does the job, sparky gets it certified and all goes well. But he's thinking about the top 2 scenarios REAL hard and doesn't even get this far because he knows what's ahead of him - especially if they gotta sign off on something they didn't do themselves - i.e. building your own battery, etc, etc.

I don't mean to sound negative about it - I want to see this succeed as much as everyone else here, but we're certainly up against it.

Regs are the reason so many electricians baulk at the task - even though it's not overly hard on the grand scheme of things.

Maybe do this: Install the solution, get a big fence, 2 even bigger dogs, lock the gate and put a "beware of the dogs" sign up. It could take years for someone to come and check on you lol

 

[BipedalPrimate]

Still the same issue .... is it within 'the (stupid) regulations' and even if its a 50/50, can you find someone to sign off on it and ratify it with the electrical wholesaler in your area. Getting a multiplus to work on the grid is not hard; it's all those regs.

I have managed to at least get a quote for the installation that includes inspector approving.

However, after me having agreed to go ahead with the quote, sparky has gone quiet for a few days.

 

[KangaRooted]

Fingers crossed for you that you can (legally) get it across the line!