growatt

[lew]

Why are there different "brands" of Growatt all in ones?
Is there a comparison of all in ones? I am tempted by the
new Renology unit. Out of stock!

 

[the_colorist]

I have not seen any re-branded Growatt inverters. Sacolar is a division of Growatt but the inverters/products are different.

Most of the rebranded hybrids on the market that I have seen are SRNE, Sacolar or some variety of Voltronic. MPP Solar is Voltronic. The Renogy is SRNE. It's an old model SRNE doesn't make anymore and marked up a bit as well (I can get them factory direct).

 

[the_colorist]

Here are datasheets on some of the latest models from SRNE/Sacolar. We'll see them popping up here and there soon if they aren't already in many places. I don't usually keep up with the availability of the rebranded HF hybrids.

 

[Deveak]

I have not seen any re-branded Growatt inverters. Sacolar is a division of Growatt but the inverters/products are different.

Most of the rebranded hybrids on the market that I have seen are SRNE, Sacolar or some variety of Voltronic. MPP Solar is Voltronic. The Renogy is SRNE. It's an old model SRNE doesn't make anymore and marked up a bit as well (I can get them factory direct).

Got an opinion of whats best among the brands? The all in one and good prices are attractive. Do they last a decent while and can they be serviced?

Is it possible to parallel two 12k Growatts? I know you can parallel the 6k. I wish they made the 6k in 24 volts.
Can you add charge controllers and communicate between the inverter MPPT and additional stand alone growatt charge controllers?

Sorry I don't know much about them. Easily a 1/3 in cost compared to other traditional low frequency inverters like the magnums.
I kind of want to go BIG. 24k inverter and 25,000 watts of solar.

 

[the_colorist]

IMHO the best of the hybrids are from Deye/SOL-ARK. SOL-ARK inverters are modified and marked up (massively) Deye inverters. The internal architecture of the Deye inverters is fairly cutting edge. IP65, 400V DC bus, multiple supported CAN/RS485 BMS protocols, etc.

Second to that is probably Growatt. Not due to technical advancement (I'm not particularly fond of them) but probably easiest to get parts and warranty support. Also, many of the Chinese BMS units support Growatt now. Even some of the lower cost ~$220 BMS units with LCD screens.

Which 12K Growatt hybrids are you talking about? It's not on the datasheet but Deye makes 10KW and 12KW models and all the models can be paralleled. Up to 16. The only issue with Deye in the US though is warranty support. They have a contract with SOL-ARK that SOL-ARK is the sole distributor in the US/NA.

 

[Deveak]

48V 6kW (18kW Max) Growatt LF 120/240V Split Phase 250V 80A SOLAR CHARGER! | eBay

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This is the one that caught my eye. I like the dual 60 amp controllers and 250 volt limit. That basically equals out to two midnite classics and 3 inverters. 1400+3000-4000=4400-5400 dollar equivalent in American equipment.

I would like to parallel two of these and maybe add stand alone charge controllers later.
Why do you not like growatt? Is it a reliability issue? I did see someone selling replacement boards for 300 bucks. I like things I can repair.
I can get 20,000 watts of solar for about 5k now. Should do my whole home and than some. I can roof mount them on my garage and the rest can go on a fixed array made of local oak timber.
Can they last the supposed 15 year design life? Most likely they will never see even 25% capacity.

 

[the_colorist]

From my point of view as an installer, several things trouble me with that particular inverter.

1. They offer spare parts and it only comes with a 2-year manufacturer warranty? This just spells problems. They are expecting failure. The average tier-1 inverters are a minimum of a 5-year warranty generally. Some are 10 and 15 years. The SMA 6048 inverters have a 10-year standard warranty out of the gate.

2. It's clear to me that there is 99% chance they are using an EI transformer and not a toroid so there will be more losses and EMF radiation than there needs to be.

3. 7000W PV input for a 12KW inverter? Why? This simply makes no sense.

4. 250V is better than 145V shown on the datasheet for sure but realistically wiring in your case 20KW of PV at anything less than 400V-600V IMHO is just a nightmare. Plus the higher the string voltage, the more resistance it can overcome with connections etc as the system ages.

5. It's only marginally less than what I can get a 12KW Deye for before shipping.

6. I install non-IP65 rated inverters but it's my preference not to. The less the boards are exposed to the elements (dust on the components pulled through the vents), the longer they last. SMA 6048 inverters are not IP65 but they are airtight when closed, keeping the boards pristine and untouched by the environment for the foreseeable future. Deye inverters are actually IP65 so they are good even installed outside.

7. Bottom line, this inverter feels "slapped together" with a bunch of parts from here and there. Not a tightly integrated machine designed from the ground up to last.

If you're looking to install 20KW of panels, I would look at PV inverters combined with bi-directional battery inverters and/or 500-600V hybrids for sure.

 

[the_colorist]

Also if you're operating these with batteries, the MPPT's will be under full load in the morning until the batteries are full.

Assuming you load each controller with enough PV to reach 80-100% of its max of course.

 

[the_colorist]

Another larger point is integration with the battery BMS assuming you're installing with LFP or some type of lithium. For smaller systems perhaps it's not worth sweating but with larger systems, the lack of BMS integration becomes more of an issue IMHO.

 

[the_colorist]

The smaller Growatt inverters feel more cohesive. That particular series of Growatt is just what I wonder about. I have a suspicion it's not even made by them but rather rebranded.

 

[Deveak]

From my point of view as an installer, several things trouble me with that particular inverter.

1. They offer spare parts and it only comes with a 2-year manufacturer warranty? This just spells problems. They are expecting failure. The average tier-1 inverters are a minimum of a 5-year warranty generally. Some are 10 and 15 years. The SMA 6048 inverters have a 10-year standard warranty out of the gate.

2. It's clear to me that there is 99% chance they are using an EI transformer and not a toroid so there will be more losses and EMF radiation than there needs to be.

3. 7000W PV input for a 12KW inverter? Why? This simply makes no sense.

4. 250V is better than 145V shown on the datasheet for sure but realistically wiring in your case 20KW of PV at anything less than 400V-600V IMHO is just a nightmare. Plus the higher the string voltage, the more resistance it can overcome with connections etc as the system ages.

5. It's only marginally less than what I can get a 12KW Deye for before shipping.

6. I installed non-IP65 rated inverters but it's my preference not to. The less the boards are exposed to the elements (dust on the components pulled through the vents), the longer they last. SMA 6048 inverters are not IP65 but they are airtight when closed, keeping the boards pristine and untouched by the environment for the foreseeable future. Deye inverters are actually IP65 so they are good even installed outside.

7. Bottom line, this inverter feels "slapped together" with a bunch of parts from here and there. Not a tightly integrated machine designed from the ground up to last.

If you're looking to install 20KW of panels, I would look at PV inverters combined with bi-directional battery inverters and/or 500-600V hybrids for sure.

This is a lot of food for thought.

1. Didn't realize you could get inverters with that good of a warranty. My current inverter is a magnum, its nearly 13 years old and they only have a 3 year. SMA inverters must be really nice!
2. Consider the cost of solar, I won't get to upset about a little inverter efficiency but when I look at the specs the THD is kind of high for a pure sine unit. They list 10%.
3. My current system uses a lot of #4 wire, so nightmares don't bother me. I get a little uncomfortable with super high dc voltage. I prefer to stick to around 120-150 volts. I've also read a lot of stories about 400-600 volt systems catching on fire from the high voltage getting through insulation. Its also hard and expensive to source DC breakers and fuses of that voltage.
5. How much does a Deye inverter go for?
6. Good to know about the dust. I will install a filter in the inverter room if I end up with a non sealed inverter. I think some of the outbacks might be sealed as well.
7. I will keep my eye out. I like units that support paralleling. In case one goes out I have a back up.

My current system is a 24 volt system. 4000 watt magnum inverter, two midnite classic charge controllers and 4000 watts of solar.
I like the low frequency inverter chargers. Its a useful feature and it has great starting capacity. I have 24 volts of trojan l16 H-AC batteries, two sets for 435x2. Just over 20k Watt hours. Almost 13 years old and showing some age but still working.

My upside is a I have free natural gas but reliable and correctly sized generators are hard to find and the good ones can cost more than most of my solar system! I need one under 10k and hopefully 1800 rpm with parts available. I have yet to find something that fits that.

 

[the_colorist]

Yeah most of the Tier-1 inverters are 5 with the option to extend.

2. Consider the cost of solar, I won't get to upset about a little inverter efficiency but when I look at the specs the THD is kind of high for a pure sine unit. They list 10%.

Yeah and I expect worse than that. When clients ask me about cheap inverters, I gently mention that this is powering everything they own so the results could be shortened life on their refrigerator compressor etc. The effects of a low-quality output cascade.

3. My current system uses a lot of #4 wire, so nightmares don't bother me. I get a little uncomfortable with super high dc voltage. I prefer to stick to around 120-150 volts. I've also read a lot of stories about 400-600 volt systems catching on fire from the high voltage getting through insulation. Its also hard and expensive to source DC breakers and fuses of that voltage.

I suppose I was mostly talking about the number of strings to install/track. One string per MPPT is ideal for the greatest power output which is one reason why longer strings work extremely well.

I don't recommend breakers for HV strings. Typically on the internet DIN fuse holders & fuses are low-cost and plentiful. We don't have any issues and I would say by and large the majority of installers don't assuming a proper installation with the correct PV wire and tight MC4's etc. Most of what I see is a lack of engineering when laying the wiring on a roof/mount, resulting in mechanical wear in places there shouldn't be any. Conduit and flex tubing is the solution for this generally. Mounting connecting MC4's directly on a terminating weather-proof IP65 enclosure, with a conduit run back to the disconnect/combiner/PV inverter. Every installation requires something different, this is just what I see.

5. How much does a Deye inverter go for?

I'll PM you.

6. Good to know about the dust. I will install a filter in the inverter room if I end up with a non sealed inverter. I think some of the outbacks might be sealed as well.

Super.

7. I will keep my eye out. I like units that support paralleling. In case one goes out I have a back up.

This is my preference as well. I prefer 5 - 5KVA Victron units over a single 15KVA any day. Now, the issues there are needing to be very precise with the wiring but it's straightforward with appropriate training.

My current system is a 24 volt system. 4000 watt magnum inverter, two midnite classic charge controllers and 4000 watts of solar.
I like the low frequency inverter chargers. Its a useful feature and it has great starting capacity. I have 24 volts of trojan l16 H-AC batteries, two sets for 435x2. Just over 20k Watt hours. Almost 13 years old and showing some age but still working.

That's super to hear. I tell clients that if properly taken care of, components and lead can last 15-20+ years. We have a saying among installers: "Batteries don't die, they're murdered". Proper charging and proper maintenance is key to making them last.

My upside is a I have free natural gas but reliable and correctly sized generators are hard to find and the good ones can cost more than most of my solar system! I need one under 10k and hopefully 1800 rpm with parts available. I have yet to find something that fits that.

What size are you looking for? What kind of pricing are you seeing for the ones you're looking at?

 

[lew]

Ok,Growatt.
Enshey
fencia
denshine
careshine
ovovo
locute

on Amazon. Are these all the same manufacturer?

 

[lew]

Wow.
Have seen a lot of all in one's. warrentees are tricky to find!

 

[the_colorist]

I admit when they are listed in a row, they look like randomly generate strings of text.

There are so many rebrands it's dizzying. IMO they is really only about 4 or 5 major OEM's, most I listed above. I typically go straight to the OEM so for warranty support.

I don't believe Growatt has any rebrands floating around. Sacolar does though.

 

[the_colorist]

Deye has some new units rolling out. I need to get pricing on them yet and they require an auto-transformer.

 

[Deveak]

Yeah most of the Tier-1 inverters are 5 with the option to extend.


Yeah and I expect worse than that. When clients ask me about cheap inverters, I gently mention that this is powering everything they own so the results could be shortened life on their refrigerator compressor etc. The effects of a low-quality output cascade.


I suppose I was mostly talking about the number of strings to install/track. One string per MPPT is ideal for the greatest power output which is one reason why longer strings work extremely well.

I don't recommend breakers for HV strings. Typically on the internet DIN fuse holders & fuses are low-cost and plentiful. We don't have any issues and I would say by and large the majority of installers don't assuming a proper installation with the correct PV wire and tight MC4's etc. Most of what I see is a lack of engineering when laying the wiring on a roof/mount, resulting in mechanical wear in places there shouldn't be any. Conduit and flex tubing is the solution for this generally. Mounting connecting MC4's directly on a terminating weather-proof IP65 enclosure, with a conduit run back to the disconnect/combiner/PV inverter. Every installation requires something different, this is just what I see.


I'll PM you.


Super.


This is my preference as well. I prefer 5 - 5KVA Victron units over a single 15KVA any day. Now, the issues there are needing to be very precise with the wiring but it's straightforward with appropriate training.


That's super to hear. I tell clients that if properly taken care of, components and lead can last 15-20+ years. We have a saying among installers: "Batteries don't die, they're murdered". Proper charging and proper maintenance is key to making them last.


What size are you looking for? What kind of pricing are you seeing for the ones you're looking at?

I am looking for something in the 5-9 KW rating and hopefully 1800 rpm with common parts so likely an industrial car engine like those chevy engine. At this point I am half tempted to build my own. My grandfather rebuilds volkswagen engines for aircraft. He said I can have a rebuilt 40 HP motor for free. Parts are available and they are about as mechanically simple as you can get and reliable. I could belt drive it at 1200-1500 rpm and it should last a LONG time. Figuring out a proper governor might be an issue though. They have a history of ground power units.
My problem so far is sub 10kw units tend to be the cheap portable generator engines. My NG is free but if I use a large generator it sucks water into the well that needs pumped. I don't own the well and the owners hate pumping it.

 

[lew]

Bought a voltmaster 9kw generator from Granger and 2 cogbelt pulleys and cogbelt
Calculated the ratio so the 13HP engine turns 2400+ to get 60Hz.
When the engine gets cranky I just replace it. The current Harbor freight 13HP unit works
great. Watch for a sale. Have had the setup for many years. I am too old to f with worn out
engines.

 

[Deveak]

Interesting, pricy though. I found a gen head from them though, never saw one before. A two bearing. I already have a 420 CC predator so maybe thats the way to go. 2400 tells me thats probably the bottom rpm for those engines and the governor still working right. Double pulley it is!

 

[copec]

Deye has some new units rolling out. I need to get pricing on them yet and they require an auto-transformer.

Can you get the “US” split phase hybrid models?

I have a Growatt spf 12000t dvm and a MPPSolar LV5048, and they both have been okay. For being low frequency the Growatt has actually been pretty efficient. I have data from my Nuvation BMS and the Growatt and it has always been above 90% efficient - which surprises me (sometimes it calculates out to 95% at certain loads but I don’t believe it).

I would like to get Deye’s instead, as I can’t bring myself to pay for the Sol-Ark as I’m all budget/second hand DIY type solar.

If it’s not even possible to slip the US model in, can the 240V out be setup with inverse CTs and transform through the meter for zero export like the little blue GTIL2s (that are/were also made by Deye)? Then just autotransformer for the critical load path off the inverter?