Home plugin battery companies

[robertsig]

Just in the last week I've read a few articles for companies that offer home batteries you simply plug into a wall outlet. Even with the two that I found, I can't quite wrap my head around how they work, or what they do. I know this isn't a solar question per se, but you guys would know.

https://orison.com/
https://sax-power.net/

So...do these batteries simply charge during the day then output their energy at night (or whenever) when rates are low? How does this not expel energy into the grid then? If you use these as a quasi-backup home-UPS solution, how fast do they work? What happens when the power comes back on?

I have a ton of questions and neither company's web page does a great job answering the obvious ones. Does anyone have any insight into these products and their capabilities?

 

[Supervstech]

Just in the last week I've read a few articles for companies that offer home batteries you simply plug into a wall outlet. Even with the two that I found, I can't quite wrap my head around how they work, or what they do. I know this isn't a solar question per se, but you guys would know.

https://orison.com/
https://sax-power.net/

So...do these batteries simply charge during the day then output their energy at night (or whenever) when rates are low? How does this not expel energy into the grid then? If you use these as a quasi-backup home-UPS solution, how fast do they work? What happens when the power comes back on?

I have a ton of questions and neither company's web page does a great job answering the obvious ones. Does anyone have any insight into these products and their capabilities?

Perhaps they only power what is plugged into them?

 

[robertsig]

Here is another one, I think.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ecoflow/ecoflow-delta-pro

 

[robertsig]

Perhaps they only power what is plugged into them?

That would make a ton more sense. The pictures on the Orison one don't really show anything like that.

 

[Samsonite801]

Perhaps they only power what is plugged into them?

No, it looks like a UPS that feeds power back into the same grid circuit it charges itself from. Under 'Smart' it confirms that.

 

[John Frum]

Ok so it charges when power is cheap and discharges when power is expensive from the same plug.
So live pins then?
If it really is a UPS, how do they avoid backfeeding the grid?

 

[Short_Shot]

... isn't that illegal as hell lmao

 

[Samsonite801]

Ok so it charges when power is cheap and discharges when power is expensive from the same plug.
So live pins then?
If it really is a UPS, how do they avoid backfeeding the grid?

I don't know that they're trying to avoid from backfeeding the grid, seems like if your power meter supports backfeeding or not, would be whether it turns backwards or not.

What I wouldn't understand about this, is when the power goes out, wouldn't it just overdraw and pop the fuse protection, because it would try to feed the neighborhood with power but wouldn't be able to meet the demand.

You'd have to turn off your main when the power goes out (so it wouldn't be able to try and backfeed)...

Because normal all-in-one inverters have a built-in Auto Transfer Switch in them (separation between grid side and local circuits side)...

 

[Q-Dog]

The Orison has been in development for years. The original idea was a free standing device ... now it is a panel than can hang on the wall or hide behind the couch ... that stores power and can backfeed your electrical panel when the power goes out. Supposed to work in conjunction with a device that mounts to your electrical panel, to monitor power from the grid and also monitor power out to diverent outlets.

I don't know if this will ever come to market, but the web site makes it look like a real product.

 

[robertsig]

So everyone saw the same problem as me. That's good. Maybe I'll write the companies for an explanation (although the Sax one doesn't play in the USA)

 

[Short_Shot]

Here is another one, I think.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ecoflow/ecoflow-delta-pro

This one looks like it has an actual transfer panel required for that application.

 

[Supervstech]

I imagine the devices do not simply plug into the wall.
They must have additional components that make them powerwall like...

 

[Short_Shot]

I imagine the devices do not simply plug into the wall.
They must have additional components that make them powerwall like...

You'd think.

But no. This one just has some manner of sensor to detect that power has gone out.

Either that or they're not being very clear about it, which is bad enough on its own.

 

[Short_Shot]

I take it back. It's a manual process. They're good to go.

 

[Samsonite801]

So it's just a computer UPS really, like v2.0 or something.

 

[iamrich]

I can definitely see this becoming more common in new houses. You build a big battery and put it in between the grid and the house panel. Power only flows one way (into the house). The battery only charges (and passes power through to the house) when rates are cheapest (or the state of charge is really low). Then when the rates are high the house runs off battery as long as it can. Add a solar array and charge controller to the equation and you basically have the currently available all in ones. If every house had this setup the demand on the grid would plummet and be much more linear. Even if the rates where fixed regardless of time, it would be a huge benefit to the grid.

 

[time2roll]

I would love to have a battery to arbitrage the TOU rates. SCEdison is not real excited about it though. If a small unit to give maybe 1 Kw for about six hours in the evening it might go unnoticed as I already have net metering. Then charge overnight and repeat daily

If the power goes out it can disconnect but maybe have a plug for light usage direct from the unit.

 

[robertsig]

I take it back. It's a manual process. They're good to go.

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Well from a technical standpoint this makes more sense now. Either plug stuff into it directly, or it first tells you to disconnect the mains. Sort of like an interlock system with a generator. However, now I can't wrap my head around how one would use the stored power on a daily basis, or more specifically, on a non-power-outage basis. Seems like a waste for it to sit there charged up 99% of the time.

 

[Short_Shot]

Well from a technical standpoint this makes more sense now. Either plug stuff into it directly, or it first tells you to disconnect the mains. Sort of like an interlock system with a generator. However, now I can't wrap my head around how one would use the stored power on a daily basis, or more specifically, on a non-power-outage basis. Seems like a waste for it to sit there charged up 99% of the time.

Charge when power is cheap during low demand times.

Power things when it's more expensive.

I assume that's only possible when the appliance or whatever is plugged into it somehow.

 

[Hedges]

I take it back. It's a manual process. They're good to go.

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Yikes!
It's a smart suicide cord.
But still entirely unsafe. If grid is down it may be able to distinguish "refrigerator and coffee pot" from "refrigerator and coffee pot and all the rest of Springfield" by resistance measurement or TDR.
But it can't distinguish that from "refrigerator and coffee pot and neighbor's TV set", so will still electrocute the lineman.

These products can be a UPS,
Or they can be an "AC battery", charging at low-rate times and backfeeding the grid with UL-1741 compliant inverter.
With addition of current transformers they can do zero-export.
They need a proper transfer switch to do whole-house backup.

If they do backfeed house wiring synchronized to utility grid (AC battery for peak-load shaving), its current plus circuit breaker current add together, exceeding ampacity of wiring in wall for downstream loads.

So many ways to get it wrong, so few to get it right.
Stick with "UPS" if you don't want to burn the house down or kill someone.

 

[Short_Shot]

Well. I think it can't turn itself on until it detects disconnect from service so.... technically ok?

I don't like it either tbh. Rather have a physical isolation device than a non contact sensor that's subject to interference

 

[Hedges]

If it turned on while grid was present and powered, inverter would come out on the losing end.
If it turned on while grid was down due to a broken power line on the pole, it would send power to your house and the neighbor's sharing electrical connection. In that case the lineman loses.

They're trying to make it simple for consumer connection, but only physical isolation as you say is dependable.
Swapping power cord from outlet to UPS is the only thing that fits the bill without wiring a transfer switch into the house.

I use interlocked circuit breakers. Requires skilled installation and costs about $100.