Alexander
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Got it, will be very kind with him then
How green is solar energy?
- Thread starter Alexander
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hankcurt
Solar Enthusiast
Solar energy, as in raw energy emitted by the sun, is probably the least 'green' in terms of the ecology of earth. If the sun were left unchecked, its emissions of highly charged fast moving particles would strip away the atmosphere, and its high energy electromagnetic radiation would break down organic molecules, including the DNA of living things. But fortunately earth has a magnetic field the deflects the charged particles and lets us keep our atmosphere, and our oxygen containing atmosphere creates an ozone layer upon contact with high energy electromagnetic radiation which brings the energy levels down to where most people can enjoy a day at the beach. So even at 93 million miles distant, the giant fusion reactor is still a pretty hazardous way to get energy. And heaven forbid it go out of balance and supernova, which does happen fairly frequently in the universe, cause then it is game over.
On the other hand, energy sources for industrialized societies of humans are also not very green in the sense of preserving earth's ability to support future generations of human life. The carbon we like to take out of the ground and burn for energy was once part of an atmosphere that would not support human life. So by burning it we are saying that we will risk restoring the atmosphere to one that didn't support human life so that we can have labor saving devices and cool technology. That is not very green in the sense of supporting human life, but it might be the most green thing that can be done to restore earth to its natural state. If we eventually remove all humans life, earth will go through the phases of bringing a balanced ecology back into existence. It will be beautiful, but nobody will be there to enjoy it.
So if by 'green' we mean that we want both a balanced ecology and an ecology that supports human life into the future, converting energy from our hazardous sun directly into energy usable in our machines, and skipping the step of burning carbon, is probably the most green solution. As we convert more and more of our energy sources to this direct method, the products we produce will have less negative impacts on our future existence. Whether our future existence is beneficial for earth is a different type of ethical question entirely.
On the other hand, energy sources for industrialized societies of humans are also not very green in the sense of preserving earth's ability to support future generations of human life. The carbon we like to take out of the ground and burn for energy was once part of an atmosphere that would not support human life. So by burning it we are saying that we will risk restoring the atmosphere to one that didn't support human life so that we can have labor saving devices and cool technology. That is not very green in the sense of supporting human life, but it might be the most green thing that can be done to restore earth to its natural state. If we eventually remove all humans life, earth will go through the phases of bringing a balanced ecology back into existence. It will be beautiful, but nobody will be there to enjoy it.
So if by 'green' we mean that we want both a balanced ecology and an ecology that supports human life into the future, converting energy from our hazardous sun directly into energy usable in our machines, and skipping the step of burning carbon, is probably the most green solution. As we convert more and more of our energy sources to this direct method, the products we produce will have less negative impacts on our future existence. Whether our future existence is beneficial for earth is a different type of ethical question entirely.
Alexander
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Your answer is very well written, I like your way of seeing things even though it's kind of sad truth. So for you there is no better energy yet than solar?
hankcurt
Solar Enthusiast
I think as far as energy sources that are readily available to individuals, solar is good and getting better by comparison to other sources. And it has the advantage of being able to integrate into our current method of building structures. On a community level, there is a good argument to add wind generation.
On a societal level, given that nuclear isotopes are going to break down in the earth's crust whether or not we put them in a nuclear reactor, well designed nuclear can also be a green source of power. Previous generations of nuclear reactor have proven to have poorly designed fail safes such that if all power is removed they don't fall into a safe state. Then too the society managing the fuel and waste from the reactors has to be trustworthy and responsible.
It is overall a very complex question.
On a societal level, given that nuclear isotopes are going to break down in the earth's crust whether or not we put them in a nuclear reactor, well designed nuclear can also be a green source of power. Previous generations of nuclear reactor have proven to have poorly designed fail safes such that if all power is removed they don't fall into a safe state. Then too the society managing the fuel and waste from the reactors has to be trustworthy and responsible.
It is overall a very complex question.
Alexander
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Right again. So you think wind could work too? What about the places where there is not often wind? You mean only in the countries with a lot of wind right? And yeah nuclear have been poorly designed but there are new ideas of designs, bill gate for example helped in this direction. I don't know if you saw the show on Netflix "inside bill's brain" but it talks about new nuclear reactors much safer and also new ways to deal with nuclear waste.
cs1234
Solar Wizard
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Wind is nice, it just doesn't scale well to small sizes. It also needs to be stored for later, just like solar. Batteries or some form of gravity / thermal / compressed hydrogen storage are required to really make green energy shine. Take what you need, save the rest for later.
HighDesertOffgrid
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Thorium (LFTR) reactors are likely the most effective green energy we have at present.
hankcurt
Solar Enthusiast
Yes, this needs to be fixed.
cs1234
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Alternatively, we could make the rules for using old ones less terrible. Some people have lots of empty space in places where a fire from busted panels might not matter as much. Would have to be a bit more careful when taking them down and storing them though.
How does it go? Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I don't know where you getting that data Something quantitative would e more convincing. Just using the term "mountains" sounds like an exageration. I bought a stack of ten used panels and I see posts all the time about people buying used panels. I know the aluminum frames are recyclable.
news media was hyping it up a while back. I'll take those panels only putting out 80%. Heck, I'll take panels only putting out 20%. I've got plenty of space.
cs1234
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Used residential panels seem like they could be easily reused at low voltages (albeit with significant wiring loss) by paralleling them and keeping them under 80v, that would keep the whole lot safer as far as their old connectors go. Unfortunately, those large commercial panels that are above 80v each will always need to be treated a bit more carefully as they age.
Older panels would be great for large parking lots as solar shading. Seems it would be easy enough to prevent fires on them. Regulations just need to change to make them allowed.
Heck, even once they've failed.. they still provide shade.
Older panels would be great for large parking lots as solar shading. Seems it would be easy enough to prevent fires on them. Regulations just need to change to make them allowed.
Heck, even once they've failed.. they still provide shade.
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chess-equality
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Every Single Panel has an end of life. That qualifies as "mountains".
It currently costs $25ish to recycle and $1ish to put in a landfill.
Look around you. Where are they all going to go?
Counting something as "green" before it's life cycle is determined is folly.
It currently costs $25ish to recycle and $1ish to put in a landfill.
Look around you. Where are they all going to go?
Counting something as "green" before it's life cycle is determined is folly.
Define "end of life". I saw one of those news articles and there was zero reference to any studies or data. It was just the usual hype.
likely by that point silver will be so expensive they will be worth more as scrap then the initial purchase price. The world will not end due to solar panels. Doom off.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
The important question is when are they going to go to a landfill?
The term "green" doesn't have much meaning to me, except the green dollars that a solar panel will save me. The economics are compelling. One of my 345 Watt panels will put out 10,000 kWhs of energy in 20 years. That is the equivalent of 30,000 miles in one of my EVs. That is 1000 gallons of gasoline or $4,000 or more. One panel in a landfill twenty years from now is nothing compared to the exhaust from burning 1000 gallons of gasoline. The dollar savings alone makes that solar panel worth it to me. I would gladly pay $25 to recycle it. If it is a problem put a recycling fee on it like paint, tires and other items.
The term "green" doesn't have much meaning to me, except the green dollars that a solar panel will save me. The economics are compelling. One of my 345 Watt panels will put out 10,000 kWhs of energy in 20 years. That is the equivalent of 30,000 miles in one of my EVs. That is 1000 gallons of gasoline or $4,000 or more. One panel in a landfill twenty years from now is nothing compared to the exhaust from burning 1000 gallons of gasoline. The dollar savings alone makes that solar panel worth it to me. I would gladly pay $25 to recycle it. If it is a problem put a recycling fee on it like paint, tires and other items.
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chess-equality
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Were these how the panels looked like back in the day?
Something I built DIY back in 2000 - my path from Trace to Xantrex to XW Pro inverters
2022-09-29 Update post When I started this thread back in 2019, I did not realize it would turn into a build thread of my system. It documents What and Why I did things as well has How they were accomplished. It also shows designs that didn't work out, and also designs that did work out great...
diysolarforum.com
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