How green is solar energy?

[timselectric]

Hmmm. Does photovoltaic output increase in the glow of radiation?

Hopefully

 

[Danke]

Payback can be defined many different ways.
When I started deciding to buy stuff to try to make a solar system that could provide all of my electricity at least 8 months out of the year, with battery storage because net metering just isn't worth the added cost here, I calculated that I would be paying nearly double per kwh for my power over the life of the system. I didn't let that bother me, because it is something i wanted to do for fun, and for the satisfaction of the achievement. Paying extra for my electricity was a reasonable cost for the hobby.

However, I was watching some videos from guys in Europe who put in PV systems a few years ago and figured they would have 15 to 20 year payback, and now they are suddenly looking at 2 to 3 year payback times. The economics can really change in a hurry. And then you get the extra payback of getting to be smug about being prepared.

Hmmm. Does photovoltaic output increase in the glow of radiation?

Yes, but we are overdue for a massive global cataclysm event from the Sun, that will destroy your solar panels…

 

[740GLE]

Yes, but we are overdue for a massive global cataclysm event from the Sun, that will destroy your solar panels…

GMD? Can’t say I’d be too worried about a solar flair damaging PV panels.

Grid stability, sure. 100 mile long transmission lines are much different than a few PV panels of an off grid system.

 

[foggysail]

Hi @GregTR. I guess you are kind of new here.. welcome to the forums. This IS what we do.

Have you seen the posts that are 45 pages long, and only about 15 pages are on topic?


Obviously, looking at my previous three sentences, I can't argue your point about the smart-assery. I can only confirm it.

However, I think I can argue that you are missing a nuance about predicting the future. People will look at the guy with an electric car and solar panels who advocates that it is a good investment and say he is some goober who thinks he knows what the future will bring. But they are ignoring the fact that by choosing to stay reliant on the petroleum industry for transportation and reliant on the power grid for electricity, they are also predicting the future. Its just that their prediction is that these industries will continue to provide affordable energy and they are also predicting that if it becomes unaffordable, they will be able to purchase solar panels and an electric car then (when everyone is trying to do the same

There are huge hurdles facing electric cars. Charging stations, charging times, transmission lines, additional power generation requirements and has anyone considered the availability of lithium, cobalt & manganese needed for large scale manufacturing of batteries?

 

[cs1234]

There are huge hurdles facing electric cars. Charging stations, charging times, transmission lines, additional power generation requirements and has anyone considered the availability of lithium, cobalt & manganese needed for large scale manufacturing of batteries?

Nope, nobody has ever considered those things.

 

[Ampster]

There are huge hurdles facing electric cars.

It has not been a problem so far but go ahead and enjoy your gas guzzler and take credit for saving the grid. I understand Crypto mining is a bigger threat because it is 24/7 whereas EVs charge when the grid has plenty of capacity. It takes me ten seconds to plug in and my EV is ready to go in the morning.

 

[sunsurfer]

Most people don't think, they just react emotionally. That is why it is so easy to fool the public. The people have been deceived because they never looked at the real science and took time to learn how things work.

They where sold a story about a harmless gas that plants need more of. This allowed real environment issues to go unfixed.

Mean while, large corp farms are poising our land and foods while everyone drives around with their emotional carbon credits.

Its the biggest scam ever and many of you have been fooled.

 

[740GLE]

It has not been a problem so far but go ahead and enjoy your gas guzzler and take credit for saving the grid. I understand Crypto mining is a bigger threat because it is 24/7 whereas EVs charge when the grid has plenty of capacity. It takes me ten seconds to plug in and my EV is ready to go in the morning.

I’d have to say the average EV driver doesn’t charge when the grid has plenty of capacity, they plug in when at home and forget it, peak depend 3-9pm.

 

[Ampster]

I’d have to say the average EV driver doesn’t charge when the grid has plenty of capacity, they plug in when at home and forget it, peak depend 3-9pm.

They? I presume you are not one of them..Let them pay those high rates. I have heard that the average EV owner has a higher IQ than the rest of the population so maybe it will not be the problem that the average person thinks it is. I am sure my sample is screwed, but the EV drivers I talk to and encounter online have figured out that either their EVSE or their EV has a timer. Even some, that I would call average or mean.

 

[Danke]

Most people don't think, they just react emotionally. That is why it is so easy to fool the public. The people have been deceived because they never looked at the real science and took time to learn how things work.

They where sold a story about a harmless gas that plants need more of. This allowed real environment issues to go unfixed.

Mean while, large corp farms are poising our land and foods while everyone drives around with their emotional carbon credits.

Its the biggest scam ever and many of you have been fooled.

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

 

[740GLE]

They? I presume you are not one of them..Let them pay those high rates. I have heard that the average EV owner has a higher IQ than the rest of the population so maybe it will not be the problem that the average person thinks it is. I am sure my sample is screwed, but the EV drivers I talk to and encounter online have figured out that either their EVSE or their EV has a timer. Even some, that I would call average or mean.

Sure if you have time based rates it’s fun to save money, but what’s the % of the population that has time based rates?

 

[Ampster]

what’s the % of the population that has time based rates?

WAG that more people have TOU based rates than drive EVs. Capacity and demand cycles will drive that like it did in California. EV TOU rates were always less expensive when I had a choice. Now with solar, TOU is required. Fortunately there are probably over one hundred different providers in fifty states and I am sure there will be capacity problems in some markets. EV adoption has not been the same in those markets and I can't worry about what the other ninety nine markets do and won't let that drive my decisions. Good reason for you or other readers who have the same fears, to continue to buy gasoline though.

In my market, PG&E has just come out with an incentive program for EV owners to charge when the grid is not stresses. For participating, I got a $50 credit which coincidentally offset most of my recent True Up balance. it gives them the ability to see if I shut down my EV charging during the grid stressed times. I don't know and don't care if they can shut down charging at that time, because the irony is i never charge then anyway.

 

[Ampster]

Sure if you have time based rates it’s fun to save money,

Have you done the math? My nephew drives an EV and he calculated he saved money on a flat rate in his market. The savings was not only in gasoline but many other maintenance expenses. He also says the EV is fun and I don't think being green was a major factor in his decision.

 

[LeoThomson]

I guess you already heard that question many times, but I am wondering what's your opinion about it, what's the facts you know about it!

Is solar panel the "greenest" energy we have? After how many years of use a normal 100w solar panel is "green profitable"? What about the battery? Are there new studies in progress for "greener" ones?

It's about 5 times better than natural gas, the "greenest" fossil fuel.

The problem with an unregulated free market is that unscrupulous people will take "shortcuts" if it saves them a few cents and dump the waste into the environment making it some one else's problem and cost, usually the tax payer. This is not only true for the fossil fuel industry.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Like all things we do, consuming resources has an impact, however we can make choices to reduce the scale of the impact.
Lead-Acid batteries can be recycled yes, and the system is set up for this as this type of battery has been around a very long time - So it will be for Lithium too. However consider the poor performance of the LAB, and the impact of lead on the environment, and all living things. An easily recycled product that has such a short life cycle span and harmful effects is not a great solution. I think Will once said "the only thing LAB's are good for is starting ICE engines! LOL.
Similarly we can have a grid set up with all sorts of green-er power imputs, but not at zero impact, lets face it: the installation of steel towers and miles of cables, transformers, substations etc is not without its' own environmental price, and the maintenance of all that infrasture is ongoing (endless).
Consider a Farm, it displaced a forest and cames with it's own environmental cost: however the acres of farmland to support a person can be tiny compared with the acres of forest it would take to support the same number of people, and at considerably efficiency difference.
They say an averge family in 1950 lived in a home 1/4 the size of today with more children, using less; today even with more efficient home insulation and equipment we consume more energy than our predecessors per household.
The real issues with Fossil Fuels are: the changes to the atmophic chemistry are largly unknown, unpredictable, and irreversible (in the time scales we can tolerate). The use of FF is unsatainable as these are non-renewable and will become more and more difficult to source, at greater and greater cost. If we sold them at their "true cost" including the removal of the emmissions from the environment (currently treated as a future cost to society) they would be unafordable already. The elephant in the room being the political and societal impact of a small number of people financially benefiting from the FF-industry (and it's protections from being held responsible for the environmental costs) while the balance of us wonder what they can do about it, feeling more or less helpless in the process. Using less, generating our own food/energy/heat/security locally with minimal impacts on the environment, reducing the centralized controls and transportation of what we consume at the very least provides us with a measure of control.

 

[Ampster]

I think Will once said "the only thing LAB's are good for is starting ICE engines! LOL.

Ironically both my Tesla's use Lead Acid Batteries to boot the electronics. Besides tires that is one of the few maintenance costs that I incur.

Using less, generating our own food/energy/heat/security locally with minimal impacts on the environment, reducing the centralized controls and transportation of what we consume at the very least provides us with a measure of control.

i agree with that and the rest of what you said. I would just like to mention that we can upgrade our insulation and shift the type and method of energy we consume. An example in my home is that I replaced and old natural gas fired inefficient forced air furnace with a heat pump minisplit. Because my house is well insulated I only have to heat the bedroom and breakfast nook instead of the whole house. I also saved the ductwork of the FAU, replaced the fan with a variable fan and upgraded the filter so when we get smoke from occasional forest fires I can filter the air in the home. A heat pump water heater is next on the list, and then even a new induction stove top. Don't know yet if I can eliminate natural gas completely but if not, then will only have it feeding my outdoor kitchen (BBQ).

 

[cs1234]

Ironically both my Tesla's use Lead Acid Batteries to boot the electronics. Besides tires that is one of the few maintenance costs that I incur.

It is funny how the EV vehicles left in legacy 12v batteries and associated wiring / fuses. I'm assuming it was primarily due to the availability of so many 12v parts in the industry and it being easier/cheaper to just toss in a 12v battery than putting in a HVdc to 12vdc converter capable of hitting huge amp spikes that might happen using all the 12v equipment at once. It's probably safer to have a bunch of 12vdc wiring being used for door locks, window controls, interior lights, radio buttons, etc.. than using HVdc for those things.

 

[hankcurt]

They say an averge family in 1950 lived in a home 1/4 the size of today with more children, using less; today even with more efficient home insulation and equipment we consume more energy than our predecessors per household.

I am dumbfounded by the historical attitudes toward home insulation. It is evident that either that generation was so hardy that cold, drafty houses were no big deal, or evidence that the relative cost of energy was really cheap. I purchased an old 700 sq. ft. home that was in terrible shape. I took the plaster off of all of the exterior walls and found no insulation, not even around the window frames. The exterior sheathing was one inch pressed fiber board, which is the only part of the wall with any insulating properties. Up in the attic, the original insulation was still there. It was about one inch of crepe paper looking material sewn together with cotton thread. I spent several days pulling it out and putting it in trash bags after I took a sample of it outside and found it burst into flames like toilet paper when lit with a match.

In terms of green things a homeowner can do, improving insulation should be the first step as it gives a reasonable payback and affects most other energy improvements decisions that might be made.

Ironically both my Tesla's use Lead Acid Batteries to boot the electronics.

Finally, in 2022, they started using lithium batteries (not sure of the chemistry) for the 12 volt electronics, at least in the Model 3 and Model Y.