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If my 12v system needs a 110 amp controller could I use 2 or 3 smaller arrays and controllers?

Nick4Freedom

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Ok so when I started buying components I didn't know any better and bought everything in 12 volt. I can't afford to start over to make this a 24 or 48 volt system at the moment. This is my question. I have 1350 watts worth of panels and 2, soon to be 3 200ah LifePo4 batteries. So I would need a charge controller capable of at least 112.5 amps. Could I split my panels into 2 or 3 smaller strings and run them with 2 60 amp or 3 40 amp controllers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
 
Ok so when I started buying components I didn't know any better and bought everything in 12 volt. I can't afford to start over to make this a 24 or 48 volt system at the moment. This is my question. I have 1350 watts worth of panels and 2, soon to be 3 200ah LifePo4 batteries. So I would need a charge controller capable of at least 112.5 amps. Could I split my panels into 2 or 3 smaller strings and run them with 2 60 amp or 3 40 amp controllers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Yes, you can use multiple charge controllers on the same battery bank.
 
Yes, just connect each MPPT to your battery bank as if the others didn't exist. They'll ignore each other and work independantly. Worst case scenario is the volt meter is off a little on one and it stops charging at 14.3 when the others think it's 14.4. No big deal.

That's commonly how we 12v users have to get around the same issue. Plus, if 1 dies the others will still plug right along.
 
Ok so when I started buying components I didn't know any better and bought everything in 12 volt. I can't afford to start over to make this a 24 or 48 volt system at the moment. This is my question. I have 1350 watts worth of panels and 2, soon to be 3 200ah LifePo4 batteries. So I would need a charge controller capable of at least 112.5 amps. Could I split my panels into 2 or 3 smaller strings and run them with 2 60 amp or 3 40 amp controllers? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
I like the Victron smart 150/35s, good balance of power for $184.
 
I am currently running two parallel 60A MPPT charge controllers on my 'temporary' 12v battery bank (and have done so for about a year)
1708149950147.png
Some say you can't do it, that the controllers will 'fight each other'- nonsense- they don't even need to be matched units- or even all the same type...

One of the biggest I have worked on personally in number of controllers on a 12v system was an offgrid setup in NSW- with a early 90's vintage PWM solar array, two different brand wind generators (both different ratings and PWM), a microhydro pelton (standard marine adjustable regulator on a 12v automotive alternator) and two MPPT solar (one was already there, and the second I was installing- all ranging from 20A to 80A in PWM, MPPT and linear regulator charging systems...
The only important thing is the the OUTPUTS connect together at the battery bank- but the solar inputs MUST all be completely separate from each other- no shared connections at any point...
 

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Just make sure the solar charge controller you get will support 48v so you can reuse it when you move up in voltage.
 
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Thanks all. I was pretty sure that was the answer but I had to verify. Currently I have 1 Epever Tracer 4210an which is capable of 40amps and 520 watt input at 12v or 1040 at 24v. It had good reviews and fit for what I had at the time. Unfortunately 2 of my arrays are rated at 600 watts (200 watt panels x3) so will I fry my controller hooking up 600 watts worth of panels to each controller? I was going to just get another 2 of the same controller if it would work so I didn't have to buy all new controllers and use what I have. Sorry for the noob questions
 
Some controllers can handle 'overpaneling' but I don't know about the 4210an personally, however a quick search showed that members here have successfully run them overpaneled by a considerable margin... far larger than yours...
Thread here
So I suspect yours will be fine running at 600w.... IF your panels stay well under the limits (in particular the combined Vocs (what are your panels rated at???)
1708201979051.png
from 4210an manual

With 3 series 200w panels the Vocs would have to be less than 33V Voc (personally I prefer to leave a larger margin than that, with panel briefly capable of 10%-15% rise in voltage above their label specs in the right (wrong for the controller) conditions, I prefer to leave a 20% 'headroom' buffer between the combined Vocs and the Pvmax rating (100v in this case) which would mean a max Voc in practice of 80v (26.6v Voc per panel) in a 3 panel string- some panels would meet this, some 200w panels far exceed it (the wattage of the panel gives no guide to the Voc and Vmp ratings)

eg
1708202541088.png
of these two- the 200w panels could be run 3 in series comfortably, but the 190w panels I wouldn't even be happy running two in series- their combined Voc's would be 90.4v- far too close to that 100v limit
What I use as a guide is this...
Safe limit of controller = 0.8x (number of panels x panel Voc)
ie from the specs, your controller has a PVmax of 100v
the 200W shown above has a Voc of 22.32v
3 x 22.32= 66.96v- under 80% of 100v is good
Where 3 of the 190w panels is 135v- REAL bad as in smoke comes out immediately, and even 2 in series would be far too close imho- at 90.4v is above that 80% of PVmax... would work but in certain weather conditions if the panels voltage rises, could see it smoke the controller... and with those 190v panel ratings I would suggest an all in parallel setup for long term reliability...

So it all comes down to what exactly your panel ratings are...
 
Thank you for the breakdown Bop, I just went and pulled the specs off my 2 different types of panels. One of the 2 types is actually 195 watt not 200 and the others are 180. But before I do the math and figure this out, I am running a 12v system why would I wire the panels in series? Shouldn't I wiring them in parallel? Thank you.
 
With a MPPT controller- series gives the best results ...
In terms of total power generation made per day, series gives the best results, then series parallel, then all in parallel comes in last- a series array on MPPT can see up to 20-30% over the exact same panels in parallel...

It comes down to charging voltages- unless you have one of the rarer (and more expensive) buck/boost MPPT ones, at lower voltages, the MPPT simply works as a PWM (giving the same low efficiency)- until your array voltage is usually 3-5v above the battery charge voltage, the MPPT part of the circuit is effectively bypassed and the panel voltage is what is charging the battery up

So your 'all in parallel' system has to get the panel voltages up (under load) to a minimum of about 18-20v on a 12v battery bank before the actual power matching starts to take place, so at that point they are running at a lower efficiency (and with some panels indeed a parallel array may NEVER get out of that low efficiency PWM range!!!) where a series array with say 3 panels- each panel only has to get to 1/3 of the charge voltage plus that 'bit extra' and the MPPT kicks into life...

Here's one of my own (I use it as an example so post it a bit)- its literally at dawn, suns not even up fully, no direct sun on the panels, and already 0.5A is flowing into the battery bank...
1708282578029.png
Because even under those conditions- each 30v Vmp panel in my series string only has to reach about 1/3 of that 13.8v + 3 to 5v (so say 18v in total) which means that each panel only has to hit about 6v from it, and the MPPT part can kick into life and start trying to maximise the yield, where all in parallel (especially 'low voltage panels' like the 18-20v Vmp like many buy to run in parallel) may not get to that same point for hours- at dawn, you can see that my array is already up at 50v- and the MPPT circuits are in operation already, sucking every last milliwatt of power they can from that arrays output... Sure its not a lot- but when you are offgrid- every last bit counts- and that extra hour or two before a PWM finally gets enough voltage under load to start producing major power, a high voltage series MPPT will have already been putting power (at reduced levels yes) for a couple of hours...
And in poor weather conditions, the MPPT will stay keeping on trying its best (even with 100% cloud cover and showers) it will keep on using the higher voltage to pump as much charge as it can into the battery bank- a PWM or all in parallel array on a MPPT may never never rise high enough to put a substantial charge in all day in those conditions (if indeed any at all)
1708283267636.png
Here you can see (sorry about the reflections- it was that dark I had the lights on in the caravan lol) but that was 8AM, 100% grey cloud cover, with showers all day, and the sun still in the treetops (look for the arrow, its pointing at the 'bright spot' that is the sun) and that array is already putting 4.4A into the battery bank- a parallel array on PWM (or MPPT even) may never reach a point where it manages much if any charge all day- yet that system is already at about 10% of its normal maximum output (and will climb further once the sun clears the treetops... on days like that, I still hit 50% of my 'normal' output even with the cloud cover and rain...)

The higher the arrays voltage is, the lower the light levels needed before you can start charging (especially on a lower voltage battery bank)- this is why a MPPT should always be run as close as possible to its maximum voltage input level, consistent with its safety-you should NEVER be right at the PVmax rating on your controller- in certain weather conditions- your panels can exceed briefly their 'specs' rating by 10%-15%- and if you are already right at that voltage limit- well magic smoke comes out of the electronics (everyone knows electronics doesn't really run on on electricity, but smoke... when it comes out- electronics stop working lol). So my personal preference is to run the arrays combined Vocs at 80% of the PVmax rating of the controller- that way 'when' those specific conditions occur, smoke stays inside...

It is also why high voltage MPPTs (running in series) can even on good days, make up to 30% more total generated power per day in total compared to PWM or low voltage parallel MPPT- they start earlier and finish later than the low voltage stuff... same midday peak- but that really isn't that important- a short high peak means nothing if it doesn't even start generating until hours after one with a lower peak starts up- some fixate on maximising that peak- I look instead at maximising the total daily power made- and thats what runs your stuff- more daily power made means longer run times for your appliances lol

(My own system is a 150v PVmax controller, with 3 series panels rated at 30.43v Vmp and 38.17v Voc- in practice it runs about 90v in good conditions, but with their combined Voc's being 114.5v, 80% of 150v is 120v so even if the panels 'spiked' in output up to 15%, my controller is still safe with the array voltage only reaching 137.4v- had I had panels with a 44v Voc instead, their combined voc would have been 132v, add in a 15% spike and thats 158.4v- over the 150v PVmax- it 'may' survive' it 'may not'...

This is why selecting your equipment and matching specs is so important to making the best performing system that will be reliable and make the most power for the least $$$
 
Yeah this is my big problem...I get ahead of myself and start buying things that in the end I can't use as my plans progress and my planned system expands. Very poor planning on my part.

Ok so my VOC on my 180 panels is 20.04 and 21.60 on my 190 watt panels. Both well within the range. Thank you for the long explanation by the way, so pardon my ignorance on this question.....so I run 3 panel strings in series, each to one of the above mentioned charge controllers. That won't put out more voltage than my 12v LifePo4 batteries can safely take at peak sun? The last thing I want to do is start a lithium battery fire I can't extinguish....or even one I can for that matter. Thanks for the help.

Nick
 
Yeah this is my big problem...I get ahead of myself and start buying things that in the end I can't use as my plans progress and my planned system expands. Very poor planning on my part.

Ok so my VOC on my 180 panels is 20.04 and 21.60 on my 190 watt panels. Both well within the range. Thank you for the long explanation by the way, so pardon my ignorance on this question.....so I run 3 panel strings in series, each to one of the above mentioned charge controllers. That won't put out more voltage than my 12v LifePo4 batteries can safely take at peak sun? The last thing I want to do is start a lithium battery fire I can't extinguish....or even one I can for that matter. Thanks for the help.

Nick
That's the MPPT charge controllers job- turns the high voltage, low current into an appropriate charging voltage for the battery bank, and cuts it off when the bank is full (which is why you NEVER just 'hook panels to a battery' as so many do...)

Even with multiple charge controllers hooked up- it simply doesn't matter- each just does its job and puts in power until it reaches its 'cutoff' point, then shuts down...
(indeed I am using two controllers on the temporary system shown above- with panels facing in different directions- the north facing generates power during the day, but the west facing array hits its peak just as the north facing has dropped right off, and continues charging literally to sunset (if you look closely at that picture of the arrays, you can see that the north facing is in its 'winter' position (angled about 30 degrees, while the west panels are more steeply angled at 45 degrees for maximum afternoon production)

LiFePO4 batteries - although they have lithium in the name- are NOT the same as the LiPO cells used in phones etc- the chances of them 'catching fire' without actual physical damage is practically zero (L/A are actually far more dangerous in this respect lol)

I have never heard of a set catching fire in Australia in over a decade and a half of use- there are videos online of a guy getting a LFP cell to catch fire.... AFTER he repeatedly 'stabs it' with a large crowbar!!!

So avoid repeatedly stabbing your battery bank with crowbars, and you are quite safe LOL

🤪
 
Another quick question. I noticed Epever makes bigger controllers. Can I mix one running a bigger string (higher number of panels) with the above mentioned setup (4210an with 3 panels in series) as long as the new string falls within the specs of the new controller as well? Or should I stick with using the same controllers/number of panels combo for each string?
 
The solar sides have to stay completely separate, it is only ever joined at the battery bank...
So it really doesn't matter at all what is happening on the solar side..
.
So yes, you can 'mix and match' to your hearts content) indeed when it is all up and running, my own will have 4x 150v 60A MPPTs with 3kw on each connected as well as the 2x inbuilt 250v 60A 3kw charge controllers in the inverter itself...

The most 'mismatched' system I have worked on to date had two PWM solar arrays of different sizes the oldest dating back to the late 1980's, 2 PWM wind generators, a 12v car alternator relying on its internal reg fed from a pelton waterwheel, an existing MPPT solar array and the new MPPT array I was called in to see what was wrong (faulty blocking diode in one of the brand new panels, was O/C and had killed the output by a third on that array)- not one of the entire lot was the same type (3 different types of regulators involved- linear, PWM and MPPT), every single one a different output rating (from 10A to 60A), with multiple power sources (wind, water and sun)- yet it all worked fine together...each delivered what it could achieve to the battery bank until it was full...
 
Thank you...so then I believe instead of 3 arrays and 4210an controllers I will run 1 three panel array in series and 4210an and 1 six panel array in series and a 60 amp 6420an (with an open circuit voltage of 200 volts). If that will work fine together as you say I will go that route. Off topic for this thread but I am assuming 12 ga wires at each panel but what size should I go into to bring the arrays to the controller? Thanks again for all the help. 10 ga? It will be around 40 feet to the controller. Thanks
 
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Another question for you Bop....One thing I am 2nd guessing myself on is with this 6 panel string, are the amps produced going to be too high for the 60 amp epever charge controller I just bought? Or the amps stay the same as if it were 1 panel because it's in series? Sorry for all the noob questions.
 
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