Inverter recommendation

[Devo]

Hello everyone! My apologies if this has been beat to death already....

I'm planning out my end goal system currently. The plan is to have a fully functional scalable solar system in the near future. I'm on a budget so I need to build this in stages. I can afford to buy stuff as money comes available but I'm not going into debt to do this.end goal is around 12 to 15kw.

Currently running on a Honda 3000i converted to propane. Big propane tank just got installed so I'm pretty stoked about not screwing around with 30 pound tanks or gas cans anymore.

Next step is the inverter / battery set up. Plan is to use the generator to charge until panels can be bought and installed.

I'm not sure yet if I prefer an all in one charger inverter with solar capability or stand alone components. All in one there seems to be lots of options.

For individual components, I seem to be struggling with invertor options. My minimum start point will be 4kw. I will want split phase, or be able to parallel units. Parallel option is must so I can scale this up over time. Do dedicated inverters exist in this configuration? Any recommendations?

Thanks!

 

[Q-Dog]

Sounds like you want a Victron MultiPlus or Quattro.

Also look at Outback, Xantrex, Magnum, Samlex, Aims. But I have no idea if any of these can be stacked/paralleled like the Victron.

 

[Danke]

You can get a split-phase Deye 8k or 12k for around $2,000 + approx. $200 shipping. They can be paralleled, and you can also do three phase.

 

[DIYrich]

Install panels before battery. Panels provide immediate savings to pay for more equipment.

 

[Steve_S]

Lets clear this up....
1) You want to be able to have 240VAC Split Phase. How many amps ?
Keep in mind that a 240V/100A Service Panel will require a 24,000W of inverter output to deliver that.
2) Your daily power consumption is ?
That will determine size of battery bank needed to provide that energy + any reserve you wish.
Most folks want 3 days useable stored without any generation (solar or other).
3) Solar Panels required are RELATIVE to your battery bank & solar Controller capacity. + Believe it or not your location as well because the available Sun Hours do count... I'm in Northern Ontario BELIEVE ME !
4) BUT IMPORTANT: Do you want to be Inspected & Certified for Insurance and/or FIT ? If So, then you need UL-C & CSA certified gear to pass inspections. Also there are far too many electrical inspectors who have NO CLUE about DC Systems that cause great metal stress. Be Aware of that.

An Inverter only converts Battery DC to VAC Power.
An Inverter/Charger does the above but can also take VAC IN to charge Batteries while providing pass-through to home (most do, not all).
An AIO (All-In-One) contains the Inverter, Charger & Solar Controller(s) - these vary a lot with different features functions & capabilities.
* Many Inverter/Chargers & AIO's can accept either Grid AC or Genset AC, some can use both (programable) as backup/charging power.
** Some can output to Grid, BEWARE Invoking Hydro One can be strenuous on your mental state. Current FIT programs & requirements are whacked thanks to Ol Douggie Boi.

Real World case: I have a large battery bank which gives me 10 days of reserve power. If I let it drop to cutoff voltage (0% SOC) I will run the Genset (4700W Inverter Generator) and it takes about 14 +/- hours @ 80A Charging to top up my batteries to 100%. My Solar Array's handle this fine in summer BUT in winter (Dec to Feb) it's tough, depends on how cloudy we get... I have 2 Solar Arrays, 1 is 4s2p 2080W and the other is 2s3p 2370W and those produce 79A & 94A Charging to my battery bank.

!!! MOST IMPORTANTLY !!!
DO NOT BUY ANYTHING ~ NO IMPULSE BUYING
There are always Great Deals and Sales and never one that is a "must get it now" deals.
Make sure you have a PLAN, with a Roadmap of what "needs" must be met first to the "wants" and then the "would likes" to have options.
There are GOTCHA's importing some things, even from the US (damned customs stupidity) and sometimes that can get you... IE some Grey Market products that will get no love in Canada...

A Reassurance in advance: There is a LOT of Legacy information related to Lead Acid Batteries & other chemistries. Appreciate that every chemistry is different and Wives Tales DO NOT Transfer either. IE: With Lead Acid Batteries, you cannot add batteries over a period of a year or two as they will always drop to the lowest battery as the master and you get instant capacity loss. With LFP (LiFePo4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate) this is NOT an issue as the BMS systems take care of each battery pack individually and they do not age/wear like Lead Acid. With LFP you CAN Add battery packs over time. Although it's best to stick to similar brand & size etc...

AIO's vs Component is complex and a while subject on it's own, there are a couple of thread on that topic right now...

 

[Rocketman]

Two things for your planning. Yes @Steve_S is right on.

For your size of system (240v - full house) you will want 48v.

Also, batteries should be the voltage size of the system - use 12v batteries for a 12 v system - use a 48v battery for a 48v system. While yes you can (with many manufacturers- but not all) put four 12v batteries in series to get 48v - it will cause extra work and problems down the road.

Good Luck

 

[ChrisG]

You can get a split-phase Deye 8k or 12k for around $2,000 + approx. $200 shipping. They can be paralleled, and you can also do three phase.

@Danke where is this procured from. Thought it was Solark or nothing in U.S.

 

[Danke]

@Danke where is this procured from. Thought it was Solark or nothing in U.S.

Many places. But the 12K is a grey area on whether or not you can ever do updates. May not be able to get any follow-on support in the US market for those.

 

[chrisski]

I assume you are off grid. Know your system prior to buying.

Since Steve is also in the Ontario area like you and walking the walk, listen to him.

I prefer individual components:

Charger
Invetter
MPPT

Easy for me to shut off the inverter and charger when not needed. Also, all three can be operational at once. Not all AIO and inverter chargers allow this, and often the documentation for different modes is lacking.

For my 3.5 kW RV with a 13.5 kWh battery, I can charge a little on a cloudy day, and fire the generator/charger up if needed.

I have a contractor installing an Outback radian 8048 inverter charger with 10 kWh of lithium batteries for my house. Most bigger inverters I see are inverter chargers.

 

[Tomthumb62]

!!! MOST IMPORTANTLY !!!
DO NOT BUY ANYTHING ~ NO IMPULSE BUYING

Cannot emphasize this enough. If you impulse buy without a solid plan you will inadvertently buy the wrong items. Which will cost you a lot of money to replace with the right ones.

Before you buy ANYTHING, post your plan with model numbers here first and all the smarty pants will help you tailor it to meet your actual needs, wants and budget. And tell you the pros and cons if your plan.

FYI, there is a lot of JUNK products out there that are extremely well marketed (aka that know how to press your impulse buy buttons), let us help you avoid that. Some of these junk products are laughingly over priced on top of being junk to begin with.

 

[Devo]

Sounds like you want a Victron MultiPlus or Quattro.

Also look at Outback, Xantrex, Magnum, Samlex, Aims. But I have no idea if any of these can be stacked/paralleled like the Victron.

Thanks!

I had been looking at the Victron stuff, and will check out the others too.

 

[Devo]

Install panels before battery. Panels provide immediate savings to pay for more equipment.

Thanks, I would if I could, but doing the whole system at once isn't financially possible right now. Maybe by the time I make up my mind.

 

[Devo]

Lets clear this up....
1) You want to be able to have 240VAC Split Phase. How many amps ?
Keep in mind that a 240V/100A Service Panel will require a 24,000W of inverter output to deliver that.
2) Your daily power consumption is ?
That will determine size of battery bank needed to provide that energy + any reserve you wish.
Most folks want 3 days useable stored without any generation (solar or other).
3) Solar Panels required are RELATIVE to your battery bank & solar Controller capacity. + Believe it or not your location as well because the available Sun Hours do count... I'm in Northern Ontario BELIEVE ME !
4) BUT IMPORTANT: Do you want to be Inspected & Certified for Insurance and/or FIT ? If So, then you need UL-C & CSA certified gear to pass inspections. Also there are far too many electrical inspectors who have NO CLUE about DC Systems that cause great metal stress. Be Aware of that.

An Inverter only converts Battery DC to VAC Power.
An Inverter/Charger does the above but can also take VAC IN to charge Batteries while providing pass-through to home (most do, not all).
An AIO (All-In-One) contains the Inverter, Charger & Solar Controller(s) - these vary a lot with different features functions & capabilities.
* Many Inverter/Chargers & AIO's can accept either Grid AC or Genset AC, some can use both (programable) as backup/charging power.
** Some can output to Grid, BEWARE Invoking Hydro One can be strenuous on your mental state. Current FIT programs & requirements are whacked thanks to Ol Douggie Boi.

Real World case: I have a large battery bank which gives me 10 days of reserve power. If I let it drop to cutoff voltage (0% SOC) I will run the Genset (4700W Inverter Generator) and it takes about 14 +/- hours @ 80A Charging to top up my batteries to 100%. My Solar Array's handle this fine in summer BUT in winter (Dec to Feb) it's tough, depends on how cloudy we get... I have 2 Solar Arrays, 1 is 4s2p 2080W and the other is 2s3p 2370W and those produce 79A & 94A Charging to my battery bank.

!!! MOST IMPORTANTLY !!!
DO NOT BUY ANYTHING ~ NO IMPULSE BUYING
There are always Great Deals and Sales and never one that is a "must get it now" deals.
Make sure you have a PLAN, with a Roadmap of what "needs" must be met first to the "wants" and then the "would likes" to have options.
There are GOTCHA's importing some things, even from the US (damned customs stupidity) and sometimes that can get you... IE some Grey Market products that will get no love in Canada...

A Reassurance in advance: There is a LOT of Legacy information related to Lead Acid Batteries & other chemistries. Appreciate that every chemistry is different and Wives Tales DO NOT Transfer either. IE: With Lead Acid Batteries, you cannot add batteries over a period of a year or two as they will always drop to the lowest battery as the master and you get instant capacity loss. With LFP (LiFePo4 / Lithium Iron Phosphate) this is NOT an issue as the BMS systems take care of each battery pack individually and they do not age/wear like Lead Acid. With LFP you CAN Add battery packs over time. Although it's best to stick to similar brand & size etc...

AIO's vs Component is complex and a while subject on it's own, there are a couple of thread on that topic right now...

Thanks for the detailed response.

Yes 240 volt split phase will be important to me in the future, mostly for the wood equipment in the shop I haven't even begun dreaming about yet. I can get by with 120v single, but inductive loads are hard to start as I feel you already know first hand. I really can't see ever needing more than 20A @240v, so that's 5kw, plus whatever other minor things are running, Like I said its a future thing and very hard to plan for 2-5 years in advance.

My regular daily life consumption is pretty modest actually. I get by just fine with a 3k generator currently, but yeah there are times I wish for more. All I really need that runs continuously is the internet, cell booster, fridge, and maybe a few other very small draws, I will make a point to sit down and really figure this out though. This will give me total capacity I need, and as you point out panel capacity needed as well.

I am unfortunately all to well aware of Hydro One and their dictatorship. Pretty much the reason I'm doing this. I refuse to pay them their outrageous demands, just for the privilege of paying them for he power I use. Don't even get me started on them.....

I am to be honest really torn between the AOI vs individual components. I really like the idea of how fast an AIO can be set up. Pretty sure I will be wanting to do individual components though. I don't have issues doing the work, or the extra time. Plus I get the flexibility of designing what I want with the components I feel are best suited.

As for certifications, I personally don't care that much, but you make a valid point that my insurance might someday. Not too concerned about ESA. I'm lucky enough to have a good relationship with the local inspectors from work I did in a recent previous job, and will be checking with them on anything I feel might be questionable or non compliant.

 

[Devo]

Two things for your planning. Yes @Steve_S is right on.

For your size of system (240v - full house) you will want 48v.

Also, batteries should be the voltage size of the system - use 12v batteries for a 12 v system - use a 48v battery for a 48v system. While yes you can (with many manufacturers- but not all) put four 12v batteries in series to get 48v - it will cause extra work and problems down the road.

Good Luck

Thank you. Good advice.

 

[Devo]

I assume you are off grid. Know your system prior to buying.

Since Steve is also in the Ontario area like you and walking the walk, listen to him.

I prefer individual components:

Charger
Invetter
MPPT

Easy for me to shut off the inverter and charger when not needed. Also, all three can be operational at once. Not all AIO and inverter chargers allow this, and often the documentation for different modes is lacking.

For my 3.5 kW RV with a 13.5 kWh battery, I can charge a little on a cloudy day, and fire the generator/charger up if needed.

I have a contractor installing an Outback radian 8048 inverter charger with 10 kWh of lithium batteries for my house. Most bigger inverters I see are inverter chargers.

Thank you. Its pretty clear Steve know whats what.

 

[Devo]

Cannot emphasize this enough. If you impulse buy without a solid plan you will inadvertently buy the wrong items. Which will cost you a lot of money to replace with the right ones.

Before you buy ANYTHING, post your plan with model numbers here first and all the smarty pants will help you tailor it to meet your actual needs, wants and budget. And tell you the pros and cons if your plan.

FYI, there is a lot of JUNK products out there that are extremely well marketed (aka that know how to press your impulse buy buttons), let us help you avoid that. Some of these junk products are laughingly over priced on top of being junk to begin with.

Thanks so much. The urge to buy now is just .... so .... strong. I'll try and behave.

 

[Steve_S]

OK, a few things to ponder upon.
Simply, we suggest never drawing more than 250A from a battery system.
12Vx250A = 3000W, 120V/25A - 240V/12.5A
24V = 6000W, 120V/50A - 240V/25A,
48V = 12,000W, 120V/100A - 240V/50A.
Not corrected for losses & inefficiencies.

A 12V system is pretty much pointless if you're thinking about having any 240V in the future, the upgrade = toss away & replace.
A 24V system can deliver 240 @ 25A, possibly a bit more (depends on hardware)
* I would strongly suggest starting with a Victron Quattro-(5k)-10k-120V Inverter/Charger that can be either paralleled with another for 240V or used with an AutoTransformer in tandem for 240V. This is Tier-1 Quality and the product families are long duration. https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/quattro
Yes this is a component route but also allows for expansion & growth over time, the other Upside, is that you can get better gear to start with because you don't have to do it all at once. Sure there is a bigger initial but it pays off...

Battery, I would not consider starting with anything less than 24V/200AH (5120Wh / 5.12kWh), can always parallel more in over time... just gotta keep up with solar to do so. Certainly want to have a BMS capable of Victron CanBus if using Quattro etc.

Solar: This is relative to battery capacity & usage... Ontario... not the greatest in winter... 2kW of panel and a respectable 150V/70A + Solar Charge Controller like Victron Smart Solar 155/70 & up models https://www.victronenergy.com/solar-charge-controllers/smartsolar-mppt-ve.can

I'm using Victron because it is Tier-1, will last ages and does exactly as the label says. It's all interactive & manageable and has long lifecycle products that interoperate

Just some starting points to ponder on known good quality hardware... of course there are other bits but those are the key components.
.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Thanks so much. The urge to buy now is just .... so .... strong. I'll try and behave.

LOL, trust me I know.

I wanted SO BAD to buy my first LifePO4 battery back in 2022. Wife said, "Not yet honey, not in the budget". I've learned she is usually right about these things and my impulse control is poor, lol.

So I passed by what I thought were some great deals on batteries. Only to find out later down the road that WAY BETTER deals came out later. And I even dodged a bullet once...I had wanted to buy the Weize 100Ah 12v for it's low price, decent quality and low-temp protection, but later found out that they have cheaped out on build quality and I would have likely ended up with a crappy battery. SO GLAD I WAITED for something much better and actually the same price as the crap-built Weize.

FYI, since the Biden administration recently announced they are going to source lithium for ALL US-made electric cars from US soil (and not China), the price of lithium in China has been dropping. I think the low prices we are seeing today are likely only to get lower in the coming months.

Wait, my friend!

Instead, spend your time learning more and more about how to setup your ideal system. You might find you end up changing it 10x before you reach the final system design. Had you bought components for all 10 designs, you would end up wasting a lot of money. So keep perfecting your system (and ask for feedback here) before buying shit, you will thank us all later if you do!

I love my current system. I unfortunately didn't do enough research for the first system and had no impulse control and bought Renogy junk. Now I have replaced all the Renogy stuff with better stuff (Victron mostly) and the system just works perfectly and efficiently and gives me NO HEADACHES!