Is The Inverter Charger Necessary On A RV

[Zwy]

The biggest load for me to plan for is leveling jacks. This is one of the reasons I have stayed at 12 volts.

I had not seen a buck converter before That could handle that power. I did just find one I had missed. The Orion 24 volt to 12 volt DC to DC converter handles 70 amps, and for me, that will probably be good. The device weighs about 2 LBS.

My 12 volt loads would be most of what I use. What uses the most energy is the Propane Blower motor, up to 100 ah a night on the coldest night of the year with the heater blowing nearly all night. That is only 6 amps though.

The largest amperage I see are the leveling jacks. I have seen 50 amps, and others have seen 100 amps. If 50 amps is really my upper limit, than I should be fine. The fuses on the leveling jacks are four 50 amp fuses.

One could run a 12v SLA or AGM that is charged off the buck converter for this purpose. I have to measure the amps my jacks take on my truck camper for loading and unloading yet. I might be able to run the jacks on 24v using a relay bank and leave the controller hooked to the buck converter. Watts will double but so will speed which might be a good thing.

Back in my younger days, I had a 1966 VW Beetle that originally was 6v and converted it to 12v. Left the 6v starter. It could be -30F and that thing would crank that motor over fast and engine would fire right off.

 

[Whinny]

"1. Is it worth it to install an Inverter / Charger"
Yes and no-great answer eh? In some trailers the inverter location and power centre are very far apart, running those wires is the biggest problem with installs. If everything is in the same area they are the best choice. The pricing should be comparable if you are looking at the same inverter tech, charger capability and transfer. Quite a few newer trailers are prewired for transfer now and that makes an external transfer switch more desirable, so does the WFCO 30 amp transfers that can be mounted directly to their power centres. You can also use a marine type manual rotary transfer-they are easy to wire to disconnect the charge from the converter.

2......it really does depend on what you wish to power with 110-2000w is the agreed limit but I wouldn't hesitate to use a Victron 3000va 2600 watt at 12v. They are stupid expensive up here though....For most occasional smaller RV use I think a 2000w high freq. is more than adequate-the microwave would probably be your biggest draw.

3......I don't plug in at all in the summer between use now, i don't think it wold be an issue for you. For the camping season I don't think it's a problem leaving the batteries fully charged. I would take them out and home for the off season-use them to setup a backup power system for the house. Use a quality MPPT controller for sure....

one more thing...I wouldn't buy Renogy....

 

[Hendo7]

m

One could run a 12v SLA or AGM that is charged off the buck converter for this purpose. I have to measure the amps my jacks take on my truck camper for loading and unloading yet. I might be able to run the jacks on 24v using a relay bank and leave the controller hooked to the buck converter. Watts will double but so will speed which might be a good thing.

Back in my younger days, I had a 1966 VW Beetle that originally was 6v and converted it to 12v. Left the 6v starter. It could be -30F and that thing would crank that motor over fast and engine would fire right off.

what about running your jacks off your trucks power only via the the trailers plug in power ,could save all that stuff in relays ,plus it will make it hard gor thief to take your yrailer

 

[chrisski]

what about running your jacks off your trucks power only via the the trailers plug in power ,could save all that stuff in relays ,plus it will make it hard gor thief to take your yrailer

I've measured those jacks pulling 50 amps, so that little wire won't send that much power. Actually, I did try to do this when I had a dead trailer battery and using the seven pin 12 volt power didn't work with raising and lowering the jacks..

With my trailer, a 3/8" mini ectension and a ratchet can raise and lower the 4 jacks, but this is not in an easy to get to place.

 

[AfterShock]

"1. Is it worth it to install an Inverter / Charger"
Yes and no-great answer eh? In some trailers the inverter location and power centre are very far apart, running those wires is the biggest problem with installs. If everything is in the same area they are the best choice. The pricing should be comparable if you are looking at the same inverter tech, charger capability and transfer. Quite a few newer trailers are prewired for transfer now and that makes an external transfer switch more desirable, so does the WFCO 30 amp transfers that can be mounted directly to their power centres. You can also use a marine type manual rotary transfer-they are easy to wire to disconnect the charge from the converter.

2......it really does depend on what you wish to power with 110-2000w is the agreed limit but I wouldn't hesitate to use a Victron 3000va 2600 watt at 12v. They are stupid expensive up here though....For most occasional smaller RV use I think a 2000w high freq. is more than adequate-the microwave would probably be your biggest draw.

3......I don't plug in at all in the summer between use now, i don't think it wold be an issue for you. For the camping season I don't think it's a problem leaving the batteries fully charged. I would take them out and home for the off season-use them to setup a backup power system for the house. Use a quality MPPT controller for sure....

one more thing...I wouldn't buy Renogy....

So I went to the dealership I bought the trailer from as they told me they were installing a 2000W inverter / Charger in a similar trailer to mine (same brand, smaller model). It seemed like this would be the hardest part of the build to run the wire going to and from the panel. I might leave that job to the dealership for that reason.

My trailer is actually classified as "solar ready" although we found out that all you get is a "solar" breaker inside the panel and roof mounted solar wire inlet. The breaker feeds 3 plugs on the trailer rather than feeding the whole trailer.

I am curious to know what the drawbacks are with the Renogy products, I've only really seen reviews of their mppt controller that were positive, not sure about their inverters. The Victrons are just beyond my budget at this point (about $2000 CAD) and that doesn't include all the accessories, they're also by far the largest units out there, which isn't great for my storage compartment.

What's your thoughts on the Growatt units? So far the online reviews seem positive.

I've measured those jacks pulling 50 amps, so that little wire won't send that much power. Actually, I did try to do this when I had a dead trailer battery and using the seven pin 12 volt power didn't work with raising and lowering the jacks..

With my trailer, a 3/8" mini ectension and a ratchet can raise and lower the 4 jacks, but this is not in an easy to get to place.

My Trailer has electric stabilizers, not jacks. I don't think they draw much power at all. That being said, the trailer technician says that everything on the trailer requires 12V, even the AC needs 12V to work on 120V. Is a buck converter sufficient or am I asking for trouble by using a 24 V system?

I asked earlier about your pure dc loads.
That is a factor in the 12volt vs 24 volt decision.
Before you spend money you should do an energy audit to make sure you have sized your system to your needs.
See my signature for a helpful link.

I did try the audit tool although I have partial information, my trailer is on order and I won't have it for about a month. I am trying to get all the components ordered so I can hook it all up right away. As far as I am concerned, I'd rather overkill it and not worry about my usage.

I can only think of 3 things on a trailer that would draw a decent amount of power on 12V: The front electric jack, the furnace and the water pump. Looking online a 1000W buck converter is only about $85. Is there really a concern to be had with my 12V system not running properly with a buck converter?

Alternatively, I could also use a cheap standard 12V lead acid on the front of the trailer that hooks up to the 12V system. Since the trailer is wired this way, this would be pretty simple. I am assuming that the battery would stay charged as the main panel would think that I am constantly on shore power and would automatically charge that battery.... Or is that a bad idea?

 

[chrisski]

My Trailer has electric stabilizers, not jacks. I don't think they draw much power at all. That being said, the trailer technician says that everything on the trailer requires 12V, even the AC needs 12V to work on 120V. Is a buck converter sufficient or am I asking for trouble by using a 24 V system?

I don't think you're asking for too much for a 24 volt upgrade. Last year when I was seriously considering a 24 volt fifth wheel upgrade, I felt I was the first one ever to go through the problem of figuring out the 12 volt trailer brake and the leveling jacks. I'm sure I'm not. its just no one has published anything to youtube university about that yet.

I think we probably have the same thing. Lippert Ground Control 2.0. I have a 35' fifth wheel. I should have said stabilizers not jacks. I did not find a simple buck converter I felt comfortable with delivering 12 volts at 50 amps. I did find in the last day or two a Victron 70 amp DC to DC Converter. I think they call it the Orion IP20. That will definitely handle the 50 amps I've seen, but I haven't measured amps in all sorts of circumstances, so if mine does get to 100 amps like others have seen, that 70 amp converter would not be enough.

 

[John Frum]

It seemed like this would be the hardest part of the build to run the wire going to and from the panel.

You want the inverter/charger as close as possible to the batteries.
The batteries like a nice human friendly climate so its good to have them in the living space.
Its good to have the batteries close to the dc distribution panel but not nearly as important and having the inverter/charger close to the batteries.
Where are you planning on putting the core system?
Also how far will it be from the core system to the ac/dc distribution panel?

I am curious to know what the drawbacks are with the Renogy products, I've only really seen reviews of their mppt controller that were positive, not sure about their inverters.

IMO Renogy products are designed to sell.
The website is approachable and it appears to be one stop shopping.
I bet lots of people buy them for their first system.
I doubt many buy from them for their second system.
Also IMO Renogy support kinda sucks.
They make this stuff appear to be easy.
Solar is easier than it used to be, but its not really that easy yet.

What's your thoughts on the Growatt units? So far the online reviews seem positive.

I would pick them over Renogy.

My Trailer has electric stabilizers, not jacks. I don't think they draw much power at all. That being said, the trailer technician says that everything on the trailer requires 12V, even the AC needs 12V to work on 120V. Is a buck converter sufficient or am I asking for trouble by using a 24 V system?

A quality buck converter can do a lot.
A quality buck converter plus a small agm battery can handle even more.
If you do go 24 volt put the buck converter as close as possible to the dc distribution panel.
Amperage and voltage drop are both lessened at 24 volts vs 12 volts.

I did try the audit tool although I have partial information, my trailer is on order and I won't have it for about a month. I am trying to get all the components ordered so I can hook it all up right away.

Its a "bad idea"TM to buy stuff until you have a plan.
A plan starts with an energy audit.

As far as I am concerned, I'd rather overkill it and not worry about my usage.

You can't afford a Victron inverter/charger but you want to "overkill" it.
That is hard to reconcile.

Looking online a 1000W buck converter is only about $85.

I bet you are referring to those cheap silver ones on amazon or ebay or similar.
Check the negative reviews.
That is why I stressed the word quality above.

Is there really a concern to be had with my 12V system not running properly with a buck converter?

Yes, as always the devil is in the details.

Alternatively, I could also use a cheap standard 12V lead acid on the front of the trailer that hooks up to the 12V system. Since the trailer is wired this way, this would be pretty simple. I am assuming that the battery would stay charged as the main panel would think that I am constantly on shore power and would automatically charge that battery.... Or is that a bad idea?

Could be a plan.

 

[AfterShock]

You want the inverter/charger as close as possible to the batteries.
The batteries like a nice human friendly climate so its good to have them in the living space.
Its good to have the batteries close to the dc distribution panel but not nearly as important and having the inverter/charger close to the batteries.
Where are you planning on putting the core system?
Also how far will it be from the core system to the ac/dc distribution panel?

IMO Renogy products are designed to sell.
The website is approachable and it appears to be one stop shopping.
I bet lots of people buy them for their first system.
I doubt many buy from them for their second system.
Also IMO Renogy support kinda sucks.
They make this stuff appear to be easy.
Solar is easier than it used to be, but its not really that easy yet.


I would pick them over Renogy.


A quality buck converter can do a lot.
A quality buck converter plus a small agm battery can handle even more.
If you do go 24 volt put the buck converter as close as possible to the dc distribution panel.
Amperage and voltage drop are both lessened at 24 volts vs 12 volts.



Its a "bad idea"TM to buy stuff until you have a plan.
A plan starts with an energy audit.


You can't afford a Victron inverter/charger but you want to "overkill" it.
That is hard to reconcile.

I bet you are referring to those cheap silver ones on amazon or ebay or similar.
Check the negative reviews.
That is why I stressed the word quality above.


Yes, as always the devil is in the details.


Could be a plan.

I think you may be right, I think that I should just bite the bullet and go with the Victron. The Growatt is appealing but comes with a few questions marks like the long term durability and requires a buck converter or a separate 12V battery.

Shopping around, I found the Victron Energy MultiPlus 12/3000/120-50 120V VE.Bus on special for $1700 CAD. Going with the battery monitor and MPPT charger from Victron will also ensure that I can access all 3 items through the same app.

To answer your other question. I would install the batteries and all other components in the front pass through compartment. Luckily for me, the model I bought has the main panel about 6' back from that compartment.

I guess now my main concern will be to build the entire system so that it can be easily removable as I've been told that some of the components of the inverter could get damaged if left outside in storage over the winter (it got to -52C or -62F here last winter).

I appreciate all the help with this build, I will start ordering the components.

 

[John Frum]

I think you may be right, I think that I should just bite the bullet and go with the Victron. The Growatt is appealing but comes with a few questions marks like the long term durability and requires a buck converter or a separate 12V battery.

You will still have to get a buck converter even if get a 24 volt Victron inverter/charger.
I don't recommend that you get a 12 volt Victron inverter/charger.

Shopping around, I found the Victron Energy MultiPlus 12/3000/120-50 120V VE.Bus on special for $1700 CAD.

The Victron has serious surge capability which needs to be factored into the wires, fuses bms and battery choices.
If you are ok with 2x 4/0 awg for the high current path from the inverter/charger to the battery bank then all is well.

To answer your other question. I would install the batteries and all other components in the front pass through compartment. Luckily for me, the model I bought has the main panel about 6' back from that compartment.

Probably the thickest wire you can land on the dc distribution panel is 6awg or 4awg if you are lucky.
Which should be fine for a 15 foot round trip.

Interactive Wire Size Calculator

Battery Chargers, Inverters, Solar Components, and Wiring Supplies for Boats, RVs, and Off-Grid Applications.

baymarinesupply.com

I guess now my main concern will be to build the entire system so that it can be easily removable as I've been told that some of the components of the inverter could get damaged if left outside in storage over the winter (it got to -52C or -62F here last winter).

Lifepo4 batteries absolutely cannot be charged below 32F.
Those temperatures are probably outside the storage temperature envelope as well.
I doubt the rest of the components will have a problem though.

 

[Zwy]

m

what about running your jacks off your trucks power only via the the trailers plug in power ,could save all that stuff in relays ,plus it will make it hard gor thief to take your yrailer

Cord length is one. Another is VD thru the 7 pin. I'd prefer a separate circuit for this reason. Probably Anderson ends. I'll find a solution at some point, have some other things I'm working on.

 

[Zwy]

You will still have to get a buck converter even if get a 24 volt Victron inverter/charger.
I don't recommend that you get a 12 volt Victron inverter/charger.

I agree 100%.

The Victron has serious surge capability which needs to be factored into the wires, fuses bms and battery choices.
If you are ok with 2x 4/0 awg for the high current path from the inverter/charger to the battery bank then all is well.

That is the other thing, 12v requires big cable and short distances.

 

[Zwy]

I've measured those jacks pulling 50 amps, so that little wire won't send that much power. Actually, I did try to do this when I had a dead trailer battery and using the seven pin 12 volt power didn't work with raising and lowering the jacks..

With my trailer, a 3/8" mini ectension and a ratchet can raise and lower the 4 jacks, but this is not in an easy to get to place.

I've raised mine with a dead battery thru the 7 pin. Truck running, I'm certain the connector got warm.

 

[Whinny]

I don't think Renogy is much better than the no name inverters on the market. If they had good support that would change my mind. The overall design of these devices is very similar but the quality of components used varies. Victron, Samlex, Xantrex, Magnum specify higher quality components in their assembly, they may all be made in the same place......
I would have zero issues with the 2600 watt Victron on 12v, the manual will have the specifications for the wire size. I would have an issue spending that much money on it if I wasn't using it to its potential.
With your distance to the converter it's a wash as to whether to use an internal or external transfer/charger. One is not easier to wire in than the other-they both do the same thing, one may do it cheaper than the other.
Again it's depending on what you want from the system, you could do Victron stuff for $2500 or a no name inverter, MPPT controller and transfer switch for $450....
How big is the trailer and how much horsepower do you want....
Look a Samlex LF inverters if that's what you decide on...

 

[AfterShock]

The breaker panel of the trailer is 6' away. Otherwise all the other components (batteries, MPPT, Inverter/charger) can be installed in very close proximity. Will it still be an issue using the 12V / 3000W version if I am using 4/0 AWG short cables ? I am assuming running cable to and from the breaker panel isn't an issue at 120V. If this will truly be of concern let me know and I will run a 24V system.

 

[John Frum]

With your distance to the converter it's a wash as to whether to use an internal or external transfer/charger. One is not easier to wire in than the other-they both do the same thing, one may do it cheaper than the other.

for a discrete transfer switch the converter needs to be re wired upstream of the transfer switch

                                |->breaker->converter
pedestal->inlet->surge_protector|->transfer_switch->ac_distribution_panel
                                         ^
                               inverter->|



for a iverter/charger the converter just needs to be disconnected

pedestal->inlet->surge_protector->inverter_charger->ac_distribution_panel

 

[LanduytG]

I have the multiplus 3000/120-50 in 12v and 1120 Ah of LiFePO4. All very short runs of 4/0, with AC running I only see .2 volt drop. I don't understand why all this stuff of getting a 24v system and converting thing back to 12v. All this does is create potential problems later. Buy good components large wire and be done with it. The KISS is always the best idea.

Greg

 

[John Frum]

I have the multiplus 3000/120-50 in 12v and 1120 Ah of LiFePO4. All very short runs of 4/0, with AC running I only see .2 volt drop. I don't understand why all this stuff of getting a 24v system and converting thing back to 12v. All this does is create potential problems later. Buy good components large wire and be done with it. The KISS is always the best idea.

Greg

Its not the voltage drop that I'm concerned about.
Its the temperature of the wires.
Even though we all use wire with insulation rated to 105C who wants there wires getting anywhere near that hot.

 

[LanduytG]

Its not the voltage drop that I'm concerned about.
Its the temperature of the wires.
Even though we all use wire with insulation rated to 105C who wants there wires getting anywhere near that hot.

Mine don't get hot. They are barely warm. Short runs and quality terminals with quality crimps.

Greg

 

[Whinny]

Tested a Xantrex ProWatt 2000 I had just repaired with #1 (cuz I had it) and boiling water in the RV microwave-wires didn't get hot.
BTW the ProWatt idles lower than any other inverter I have tested-350ma

 

[John Frum]

Mine don't get hot. They are barely warm. Short runs and quality terminals with quality crimps.

Greg

Agree about quality terminals and crimps but the length of the wire doesn't much matter in regards to current carrying capacity.
The big factors are ambient temperature and amperage of course.
According to this document https://www.usawire-cable.com/pdf/nec-ampacities.pdf
4/0 awg copper with insulation rated for 90C can carry 260 amps.
That means fault current should be less than <= 260 amps.