diy solar

diy solar

IS there a industry standard for connectivity for solar systems?

ggdiysf000

New Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2024
Messages
4
Location
fremont, ca
I am new to forum and always wondered. To draw a parallel, every component in personal computer or server used to host web has a interconnection between various component highly standardized and matured over decades:
Just give you an example:
TCP/IP for network transfer
PCIe for high speed transfer.
SATA for disk storage
JEDEC - memory
so that anyone follow the standard can come up with the product and works with the rest.

Wondering if this will every be the case for solar?
For my house, i wanna be able to buy solar panel from vendor A, and buy energy storage from vendor B and monitorin/control system from vendor C and expect to work all together
 
For my house, i wanna be able to buy solar panel from vendor A, and buy energy storage from vendor B and monitorin/control system from vendor C and expect to work all together
Not quite standardized, yet.
But can still be accomplished.
Panels are basic, any brand will work.
With open loop, you can mix and match inverters, battery chargers, and batteries.
For monitoring, Solar Assistant works for many.
 
Ummm...nope. Not soon.

Remember VHS vs. Betamax?

Nobody has any incentive to cooperate, only compete. It's all about the Benjamins, as it always is. Why help a competing brand by making it compatible with your competitor's products?

That being said, there are a few exceptions and lots of workarounds if you know your way around a soldering iron, know how to write code, and understand MODBUS and its variants.
 
there is gotta a consortium, collaboration between number of industry players, that is how big players in tech was able to work together and came up with classic interconnection aforementioned above. Now with AI, it is also wild west hopefully it will be std-ized soon.
 
Not sure your question was answered fully. Solar inverters typically use industrial control and communications methods such as CAN and Modbus TCP or RS485 between the battery BMS and the inverter. There is a trend towards Brand to Brand compatibility in this regard but its not quite plug and play yet. Usually there are some dip switches involved as well as frustration and maybe some choice words.

Inverter to human communication is usually via a built in display and keyboard on the unit and many have WiFi adapters for network connections and phone apps.
 
It would be nice if there was a standard for paralleling inverters.

One unit is designated the "Master".
Master polls the Bus and asks each Inverter to Identify itself.
Master assigns each inverter a "Unit Number".
Master polls each inverter for its capability: Inverter Max, Grid Passthrough, Battery Amps Charge, Battery Amps Discharge, Load Max. Smart Max

Each invert sends constant updates on: PV Production
Master assigns each inverter how much: Battery Charge/Discharge amps (or whatever PV produces), Power to Load, Power to Smart
Master fills the balance, and updates assignment as needed.

This would be basic functionality.
 
It would be nice if there was a standard for paralleling inverters.

One unit is designated the "Master".
Master polls the Bus and asks each Inverter to Identify itself.
Master assigns each inverter a "Unit Number".
Master polls each inverter for its capability: Inverter Max, Grid Passthrough, Battery Amps Charge, Battery Amps Discharge, Load Max. Smart Max

Each invert sends constant updates on: PV Production
Master assigns each inverter how much: Battery Charge/Discharge amps (or whatever PV produces), Power to Load, Power to Smart
Master fills the balance, and updates assignment as needed.

This would be basic functionality.
That's a pretty crazy dream, you are having.
You are going to be sad, when you wake up.
 
Ummm...nope. Not soon.

Remember VHS vs. Betamax?

Nobody has any incentive to cooperate, only compete. It's all about the Benjamins, as it always is. Why help a competing brand by making it compatible with your competitor's products?

That being said, there are a few exceptions and lots of workarounds if you know your way around a soldering iron, know how to write code, and understand MODBUS and its variants.
Long live DVDHD!!! Blu-ray sucks!!!

Even victron in their infinite wisdom has 3-4 different communication protocols, they have great legacy support so it’ll never be clean cut for installations of just one com method.
 
Long live DVDHD!!! Blu-ray sucks!!!

Even victron in their infinite wisdom has 3-4 different communication protocols, they have great legacy support so it’ll never be clean cut for installations of just one com method.

Long live Laserdisc - urhm, I'll be over in the corner dreaming about standards and solar vendors.
 
Not sure your question was answered fully. Solar inverters typically use industrial control and communications methods such as CAN and Modbus TCP or RS485 between the battery BMS and the inverter. There is a trend towards Brand to Brand compatibility in this regard but its not quite plug and play yet. Usually there are some dip switches involved as well as frustration and maybe some choice words.

Inverter to human communication is usually via a built in display and keyboard on the unit and many have WiFi adapters for network connections and phone apps.
YES bentley. Plug-and-Play is must!!! in addition to standardization. Then only after that, industry will mature. Without it, all sorts of bad thing happens with monopoly: price gouging, vendor lock in etc.,
 
Long live DVDHD!!! Blu-ray sucks!!!

Even victron in their infinite wisdom has 3-4 different communication protocols, they have great legacy support so it’ll never be clean cut for installations of just one com method.
some tech will go extinct but sometime they re-incarnate. I heard vinyl disks are coming back for nostalgia and dumb phones to stay off social media. As for myself, I am sworn out of spotify (because sick and tired of update and recommendation, popup) and literally using mp3 files stored locally.
 
YES bentley. Plug-and-Play is must!!! in addition to standardization. Then only after that, industry will mature. Without it, all sorts of bad thing happens with monopoly: price gouging, vendor lock in etc.,
It is standardised but remember where plug-and-play originated, Microsoft and it's Windows O/S! IMHO that is a trade-off which in hindsight we would have been much better without. As Bentley pointed out a majority of hardware is based on combinations of multiple, well established tried and tested electrical and comms open standards, this does require the would-be Solar DIY'er to have to undergo a learning process in order to evaluate the merits of each vendors offering but if you are unable to do that you probably shouldn't be anywhere near high voltage equipment anyway. I would argue because we do not have dumbed down plug-and-play / equipment solar standards but do have basic building block standards the ground is more fertile for innovation and creativity in solar products, some will be utter rubbish while others maybe genius.

On a related point one thing that is missing with solar equipment is proper documentation, schematics and modbus register maps.
 
For my house, i wanna be able to buy solar panel from vendor A, and buy energy storage from vendor B and monitorin/control system from vendor C and expect to work all together

Solar panel is the only one that works this way.

Electrical code and UL rules prohibited interoperation between batteries and inverters for a while, until they added rules legalizing it in UL 9540 DC ESS.

there is gotta a consortium, collaboration between number of industry players, that is how big players in tech was able to work together and came up with classic interconnection aforementioned above. Now with AI, it is also wild west hopefully it will be std-ized soon.
SunSpec has covered a couple of these. It's pretty limited though. I wouldn't hold my breath for standardization. Keep in mind we're talking about power electronics companies, not networking or software companies. Everything takes forever to do.
 
I suspect such inter-system communication will be driven by market forces and incentives, and as such I don't see a strong market demand for cross-vendor, entire PC solar industry communication. However
- using DOCSIS as a conceptual model, I could envision a grid-tie inverter setup where the grid-interactive portion is controlled by PoCo.
ex., You haven't signed up (or complete process yet) for back-feeding grid, PoCo controls that. etc.
Give PoCo ability to limit backfeed as appropriate (ex. excess power on grid) or request power

Next on the market demand (stability) list might be an extension of above (and as alluded to with request for extra power) would be 'virtual power plant' type capability (ie PoCo requesting at X? price, extra power presumably from battery, though that could extend to shutting off high demand local loads (ex A/C, etc) as same net effect)
- my thinking is that Inverter would receive signal and then 'homeowner' would have pre-configured (at time of system stand-up or entering into VPP agreement/ whenever) response options (let PoCo drain battery, only push battery at certain price to a certain level, etc or whatever the local decision criteria would be. Exact options being local market driven as well as sophistication of Inverter Mfg, presumably with same base capability to 'participate')

The above may be harder, but as they impact entire grid, I'd expect more standardization in that area than others (and I could be really wrong)

Then comes the site specific communication in terms of managing power output from PV, battery, and other (wind turbines, etc). A typical grid-tie situation (backfeeding grid allowed) isn't that complicated with PV generating all it can all the time, and then depending on Inverter settings on battery charge profile, whether to supplement from grid, battery, etc. and the prioritization and timing scheme to follow.

Complications arise when
- not grid-tied (or grid down) and panels producing more than can be used (ie batteries full, if present and no extra loads)
There are existing frequency/voltage adjustments to slow/stop PV production but they do seem a bit brute force type approach to me...
Did I read correctly that Enphase is using powerline (Ethernet over a/c power cables) to communicate with micro-inverters?
though not much incentive, standardizing at least some of that main Inverter/combiner box communication with panels (optimizers/micro-inverters (though would powerline type approach work over DC lines? and this doesn't apply to simple string only setup where nothing to 'talk to'... MPPT/inverter talking to itself)

The next piece would be an Inverter API or similar for work with Home Automation/Solar Assistant type setups (and whatever may come to be in this space). My suspicion is that the market is too new to be focused on standardizing this last step. At this point, I think the onus is on the consumer to demand such communication ability (personally I insist on Ethernet connectivity vs WiFi, but others will prioritize convenience over security and reliability/consistency).

Those are the main 'full system considerations'. Obviously the one I've left out is BMS/battery communication .. though again, maybe a bit early, and with new battery chemistries coming??? is what we have today goo enough (for all but the true die-hard DIYer doing the old mix-n'-mismatch). Is this any different from needing to check memory type and timings with motherboard compatibility?

As for your examples, the issue is that TCP/IP is NOT the only protocol used for network communication, even over the Internet. PCIe for some high-speed, but not all (many others in datacenter/server market). SATA (and SAS) are now legacy interfaces/protocols, etc ;^)
 
I tend to agree, there is little economic incentive for a manufacture to push for a standard, at this point in time. It is largely seen as driving sales away from their products, by enabling the competition.

HOWEVER, I actually think it could happen quite quickly if/when it became written into the electrical code (NEC in the US). Once a specific battery-inverter protocol (or other "standards") are part of some ULwxyz standard that you need to pass inspection or get onto the CEC list, it will be adopted very quickly, IMO... I also suspect that once it becomes clear that a UL standard is going to happen, the manufactures will want to be on the committee coming up with rules.
 
California didn't require a specific communications protocol for the next generation control beyond 1741SA frequency-watts etc. The standard kind of just says "supports a protocol in the future". And the 1741SB-equivalent hardware have different protocols for control for communicating with the POCO. So the ship has sailed on standardization for a while.

Did I read correctly that Enphase is using powerline (Ethernet over a/c power cables) to communicate with micro-inverters?

It uses PLC, yes. This was revised between IQ7 / IQ8 generation, so they're not even compatible with themselves. The protocol update was in part done to allow IQ8 to AC couple to IQ batteries without having to conform to an AC coupling ratio, instead the IQ8s can be commanded to ramp down safely. (It might also be involved in battery-less sunlight backup).

As for DC PLC communications, I'm not sure what is out there. Tigo uses wireless for their advanced optimizers and monitoring protocol, and wired for their simple RSD. Not sure what SolarEdge uses for communicating to their optimizers.
 
That's a pretty crazy dream, you are having.
You are going to be sad, when you wake up
gotta admit, the closed battery inverter loop is great

Jack Rikard was saying long ago that batteries should tell inverters their profile, instead of we manually entering in the voltage info.

So we are getting there, save for the various protocols used now (EG4, LUX, Pylon, etc data formats)
 
gotta admit, the closed battery inverter loop is great

Jack Rikard was saying long ago that batteries should tell inverters their profile, instead of we manually entering in the voltage info.

So we are getting there, save for the various protocols used now (EG4, LUX, Pylon, etc data formats)
I prefer simplicity and reliability.
The more things that we hand over the technology, the less reliable it gets.
Convenience, always comes at a price.
I started out with closed loop. Because I didn't know anything about LFP batteries. But it was too problematic.
so I took the time to gain the knowledge. And now my system is more reliable, predictable, and efficient.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top