diy solar

diy solar

What would a standard for plugging solar panels directly into our homes look like?

celer

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2023
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3
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Evergreen, CO
What would you imagine needs to happen to allow people to utilize solar safely with the grid without having to deal with all of the current regulatory challenges with permitting - lowering the bar so much that someone who is not technical could walk into a home improvement store, buy a solar panel and plug it into their house and start generating power.

Why isn't there a standard & regulations for plugging in ~ 1500w of power to the grid today? What would this standard & regulations need to look like?

My guess is
  1. Specialized outlet designed for plugging in renewable energy limited to 1500w of 120AC - so it carries the same risks as using an extension cord with a 1500w AC heater.
  2. The solar panel/inverter combo, since it generates energy needs to have its own breaker integrated into it, and ground wire to provide safety.
  3. The electric company has to provide a net metering capable meter
  4. I think this needs to be a dedicated circuit with a single plug for generating energy, so the supply side can't overload it.
I'm just trying to imagine a world where we had outlets you could plug stuff into to feed back into the grid, to really democratize energy generation, so everyone could partake.

The closest thing I've found is the ConnectDER, which is a meter you can easily plug solar into, but it's not something someone non-technical could just plug stuff into safely.
 
What would you imagine needs to happen to allow people to utilize solar safely with the grid without having to deal with all of the current regulatory challenges with permitting - lowering the bar so much that someone who is not technical could walk into a home improvement store, buy a solar panel and plug it into their house and start generating power.

Why isn't there a standard & regulations for plugging in ~ 1500w of power to the grid today? What would this standard & regulations need to look like?

My guess is
  1. Specialized outlet designed for plugging in renewable energy limited to 1500w of 120AC - so it carries the same risks as using an extension cord with a 1500w AC heater.
  2. The solar panel/inverter combo, since it generates energy needs to have its own breaker integrated into it, and ground wire to provide safety.
  3. The electric company has to provide a net metering capable meter
  4. I think this needs to be a dedicated circuit with a single plug for generating energy, so the supply side can't overload it.
I'm just trying to imagine a world where we had outlets you could plug stuff into to feed back into the grid, to really democratize energy generation, so everyone could partake.

The closest thing I've found is the ConnectDER, which is a meter you can easily plug solar into, but it's not something someone non-technical could just plug stuff into safely.
Good idea!
There are enough people wanting to do this that it should be possible "off the shelf" instead of each one being a custom design.
You would still need to give some thought for number of panels in series/parallel.
Mebbe give some thought to standard plugs a la V2H since they're both DC.
 
Why isn't there a standard & regulations for plugging in ~ 1500w of power to the grid today? What would this standard & regulations need to look like?
Lots of "standards" for plugging in something as easy as a generator for the home.

If you are not feeding the grid with excess power, then standards could be similar to generator.

If you are feeding the grid, then grid stability becomes a big problem. Lots of "standards" related to when you can disconnect and stop supporting the grid. They don't want everyone disconnecting at the same time, withdrawing the power, and destabilizing the grid.
 
There were "AC" modules with plug for standard outlet. A problem with that is it adds power downstream of circuit breaker, could result in more total current carried by wires to load than the wires could handle.

All that would be needed is a dedicated outlet. I've used a 30A dryer outlet for testing inverters. Plus an extra ground wire, because DC could deliver voltage even with AC disconnected.

Wiring an inverter into an electrical panel is trivial. More involved is mounting PV panels without causing roof leaks, and adding a ground wire for frame (that's one thing that could get standardized as you suggest.

Several rules to follow, including 120% rule for breaker panel and Rapid Shutdown for firemen.
 
What would you imagine needs to happen to allow people to utilize solar safely with the grid without having to deal with all of the current regulatory challenges with permitting - lowering the bar so much that someone who is not technical could walk into a home improvement store, buy a solar panel and plug it into their house and start generating power.

Why isn't there a standard & regulations for plugging in ~ 1500w of power to the grid today? What would this standard & regulations need to look like?

My guess is
  1. Specialized outlet designed for plugging in renewable energy limited to 1500w of 120AC - so it carries the same risks as using an extension cord with a 1500w AC heater.
  2. The solar panel/inverter combo, since it generates energy needs to have its own breaker integrated into it, and ground wire to provide safety.
  3. The electric company has to provide a net metering capable meter
  4. I think this needs to be a dedicated circuit with a single plug for generating energy, so the supply side can't overload it.
I'm just trying to imagine a world where we had outlets you could plug stuff into to feed back into the grid, to really democratize energy generation, so everyone could partake.

The closest thing I've found is the ConnectDER, which is a meter you can easily plug solar into, but it's not something someone non-technical could just plug stuff into safely.
Not going to happen.

There are just too many things involved to get there to have a simple plug standard that will allow you to "walk into a home improvement store, buy a solar panel and plug it into their house and start generating power."

The inverter, charge controller, batteries(if needed), interfacing with the existing electric system etc.

To be honest they need to have to figure it out. It doesn't need to get any easier than it is now shake and bake wise or they are going to kill themselves or someone else....
 
If you take backfeeding the grid out of the equation, it pretty much already exists in products like EcoFlow. Trying to make plug-and-play backfeeding seems impractical to me, and likely not worth the effort.
 
Can't "plug a generator" into the home, w/o pulling a permit, getting an electrician involved, etc. Those with no experience (and little common sense) get killed all the time, or backfeed the grid, etc.

You *can* buy a generator, and use it as an appliance, where you only stretch extension cords from it's panel to the appliances. If bought, installed to the manual, and used as standalone appliance, it doesn't kill too many people.

WRT the OP, I'd say that there is too much of a lock between all the partners driving the whole "building codes" process ... vendors, trades, AHJ's, mortgages, insurance, etc. You have all these "parties", and usually one (token?) "common person", defining the codes. There is no way this current process will allow for DIY plug & play, unless you just go your own way, and hope you don't get caught.

You'll know things have changed when these rigid processes have (finally?) included a way for DIY's to do something, taking full responsibility for it, up to and including "dying for it" ... if I'm not mistaken, such a process is not in any of the codes. It's their way, or the highway ...

IMHO ...
 
Can't "plug a generator" into the home, w/o pulling a permit, getting an electrician involved, etc. Those with no experience (and little common sense) get killed all the time, or backfeed the grid, etc.

You *can* buy a generator, and use it as an appliance, where you only stretch extension cords from it's panel to the appliances. If bought, installed to the manual, and used as standalone appliance, it doesn't kill too many people.

WRT the OP, I'd say that there is too much of a lock between all the partners driving the whole "building codes" process ... vendors, trades, AHJ's, mortgages, insurance, etc. You have all these "parties", and usually one (token?) "common person", defining the codes. There is no way this current process will allow for DIY plug & play, unless you just go your own way, and hope you don't get caught.

You'll know things have changed when these rigid processes have (finally?) included a way for DIY's to do something, taking full responsibility for it, up to and including "dying for it" ... if I'm not mistaken, such a process is not in any of the codes. It's their way, or the highway ...

IMHO ...
Actually in Alabama as long as your doing your own work you can do whatever you want. I rewired my entire first house on my own and never talked to a single government person about it other than chit chat in town on the subject which included inspector people who gave me tips when I asked about stuff. You can't touch other peoples stuff without a license here but you can do whatever you want to your own stuff.
 
Actually in Alabama as long as your doing your own work you can do whatever you want. I rewired my entire first house on my own and never talked to a single government person about it other than chit chat in town on the subject which included inspector people who gave me tips when I asked about stuff. You can't touch other peoples stuff without a license here but you can do whatever you want to your own stuff.
Shhhh....

"Off-grid electricity is legal in Alabama. You will need a permit for your system, and, in most cases, it needs to be installed by a licensed electrician. The permit and installation requirements vary depending on the county."

"If you want grid-connected solar in Alabama, you will also have to deal with the power company’s requirements. "

 
There are still a few islands of "do your own thing", wrt building codes ... except for individual reports like yours in a few spots across the states, these appear to be reducing down.

I still contend that you have to "do your own thing" correctly, as in, if you mistakenly backfed the grid, and linemen died, or someone at your house died, or whatever, then the investigations begin, and folks go to jail.

I'm "allowed" to do my own electrical and plumbing, but there is also state and county legalities in place that require things be permitted, codes followed, etc., to the point of bureaucratic madness. Stealth projects abound in the "less-populated" areas, where one might still be able to get away with non-permitted work.

If you never let anyone into your house, or never connected to the grid incorrectly, then only you can die, and nobody will really care. If you don't follow the rules of permitting/inspection/etc, and only you die, again no big deal ...

If you do good work, and nobody dies, again no big deal ... just don't get "caught", as it's all legal until you get caught (whatever the complex rules are in your area).
 
Shhhh....

"Off-grid electricity is legal in Alabama. You will need a permit for your system, and, in most cases, it needs to be installed by a licensed electrician. The permit and installation requirements vary depending on the county."

"If you want grid-connected solar in Alabama, you will also have to deal with the power company’s requirements. "

You do have to have a perc test done if you want to put a septic tank in. Can't think of anything else :)

Now inside city limits in a few of the large cities they have their own things to deal with. But the states nice about it all.

I helped a friend when he built his house. Was fun. None of us had a clue what we were doing but it turned out nice. Kind of like those barn building things you see in movies. Apparently when building a house and such its ok there too as long as no one gets paid. Beer isn't consider a currency I guess.

But you can still tell to this day which rooms were finished during holidays and long weekends ? :whistle:
 
Couldn't easily pick out a user guide, so no real clue as to how it works ... more digging needed.

Probably very non-UL ...

Seems interesting, as maybe this is the first step in getting to plug & play, and possibly to UL listing ...

I'm amazed that "over 900" of these have been sold ...

From an engineering standpoint, it must be that these get solar panel output, sync it to the grid, and "push" electrical pressure to the house wiring, feeding appliances before the grid side pushes power "into the house". If grid goes down, then this thing goes down as well?
 
What would you imagine needs to happen to allow people to utilize solar safely with the grid without having to deal with all of the current regulatory challenges with permitting - lowering the bar so much that someone who is not technical could walk into a home improvement store, buy a solar panel and plug it into their house and start generating power.

Why isn't there a standard & regulations for plugging in ~ 1500w of power to the grid today? What would this standard & regulations need to look like?

My guess is
  1. Specialized outlet designed for plugging in renewable energy limited to 1500w of 120AC - so it carries the same risks as using an extension cord with a 1500w AC heater.
  2. The solar panel/inverter combo, since it generates energy needs to have its own breaker integrated into it, and ground wire to provide safety.
  3. The electric company has to provide a net metering capable meter
  4. I think this needs to be a dedicated circuit with a single plug for generating energy, so the supply side can't overload it.
I'm just trying to imagine a world where we had outlets you could plug stuff into to feed back into the grid, to really democratize energy generation, so everyone could partake.

The closest thing I've found is the ConnectDER, which is a meter you can easily plug solar into, but it's not something someone non-technical could just plug stuff into safely.
Today you could potentially just buy this microinverter off amazon, plug in a couple panels to it, and plug it into your existing 120v wall socket (for the record, I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS - YOU MUST FOLLOW ALL LOCAL CODES AND REGULATIONS!). It has islanding, so if the grid goes down it shuts down automatically and you will not put anyone w/ the utility in danger. You can string multiple microinverters together (or they have a 1400w version which accepts 4 panels). I would suggest using a dedicated branch, but it is not 100% necessary. We have breakers to protect wires from homeowners overloading them. If you did overload it, would it not just flip the breaker? Is there any law on the books that actually says this is illegal for a homeowner to do today? I think the worst that could happen would be your utility comes knocking at your door and tells you to unplug it. But they'd probably only notice if you had a larger system. 1500w or less when your consumption always exceeds? I doubt they'd ever notice.

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I 100% agree with you, there's no reason this should not be legal and common practice. The problem is the incentives are not there for the solar industry. People with interests in the industry love to make it extremely difficult for homeowners to take advantage of the sun without jumping through hoops.

Another idea, for folks with EV Level 2 chargers - Buy and install one which plugs into a dryer type plug at 240v. Plug your EV in at night to charge, and when you head of for work in the AM, plug in your solar array to backfeed. This would be a 'plug-and-play' way to get 240V backfeed at, say 40a or more, so you could easily run a 7.6kW inverter and just plug it in. It won't energize until it has been plugged in for something like 60 seconds, so you aren't at risk, so long as it isn't energized after it is unplugged.

In my case, putting together a legitimate system (not the above one!), I can't even qualify for any credits through my state or my utility because I'm doing the install myself. If it is permitted and inspected (which it will be), why not give me the rebate? Well, because there's too much money protecting the interests of the solar industry, feeding exorbitant markups on parts and labor and sticking consumers with long term loans. Also, the rebate $ gets eaten up in the first few months each year, which actually puts a bottleneck on adoption of solar because everyone waits until the next year to do their project so they can get the credit. The current incentives only benefit the solar industry, slow down adoption of solar generation, and turn a $5,000 project (before incentives) into $20K+ project (after incentives).
 
Can't "plug a generator" into the home, w/o pulling a permit, getting an electrician involved, etc. Those with no experience (and little common sense) get killed all the time, or backfeed the grid, etc.

You *can* buy a generator, and use it as an appliance, where you only stretch extension cords from it's panel to the appliances. If bought, installed to the manual, and used as standalone appliance, it doesn't kill too many people.

WRT the OP, I'd say that there is too much of a lock between all the partners driving the whole "building codes" process ... vendors, trades, AHJ's, mortgages, insurance, etc. You have all these "parties", and usually one (token?) "common person", defining the codes. There is no way this current process will allow for DIY plug & play, unless you just go your own way, and hope you don't get caught.

You'll know things have changed when these rigid processes have (finally?) included a way for DIY's to do something, taking full responsibility for it, up to and including "dying for it" ... if I'm not mistaken, such a process is not in any of the codes. It's their way, or the highway ...

IMHO ...
Absolutely - The folks who control and administer the regulations get paid more by making more regulations. It's fundamentally opposed to their interests to cut down the barriers between them and the consumer/homeowner.

But, let's say the kit came with it's own ground mount solution - That would eliminate at least one strain of objections from the firefighters. I don't see folks ever placing a plug-and-play system on the roof outside of dealing with permitting/inspection around rapid shutdown and pathways for emergency workers. Uninhabited structures don't have to have RSD. It would be cool if it doubled as a carport you could park under.
 
Can't "plug a generator" into the home, w/o pulling a permit, getting an electrician involved, etc. Those with no experience (and little common sense) get killed all the time, or backfeed the grid, etc.

You *can* buy a generator, and use it as an appliance, where you only stretch extension cords from it's panel to the appliances. If bought, installed to the manual, and used as standalone appliance, it doesn't kill too many people.

WRT the OP, I'd say that there is too much of a lock between all the partners driving the whole "building codes" process ... vendors, trades, AHJ's, mortgages, insurance, etc. You have all these "parties", and usually one (token?) "common person", defining the codes. There is no way this current process will allow for DIY plug & play, unless you just go your own way, and hope you don't get caught.
I absolutely agree, the industry and government is designed to make it hard, and to protect their respective industries.
You'll know things have changed when these rigid processes have (finally?) included a way for DIY's to do something, taking full responsibility for it, up to and including "dying for it" ... if I'm not mistaken, such a process is not in any of the codes. It's their way, or the highway ...
We already have these little plugs all over our homes that can kill you, you can hook up an extension cord to an outlet today and then carelessly kill yourself with it. So why can't we design a similar standard for sending energy back to the grid, with a similar risk profile - that is ultimately my question. Sure the standard doesn't exist, but isn't that an artifact of how we built out the current system?

 
Today you could potentially just buy this microinverter off amazon, plug in a couple panels to it, and plug it into your existing 120v wall socket (for the record, I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS - YOU MUST FOLLOW ALL LOCAL CODES AND REGULATIONS!). It has islanding, so if the grid goes down it shuts down automatically and you will not put anyone w/ the utility in danger. ... I would suggest using a dedicated branch, but it is not 100% necessary. We have breakers to protect wires from homeowners overloading them. If you did overload it, would it not just flip the breaker?

You have a 15A breaker (1800W at 120V), and you plug in this inverter for 700W (6A more).
You now have 21A available to power a coffee maker and hair dryer on the same circuit. But the wire can't handle it.

Would work if PV backfed from far end of a wire, just like how we land the PV breaker at far end of breaker panel busbar.
But you likely have no idea how the various outlets and lights in your house are daisy-chained together.
 
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