Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

[Bud Martin]

So haw many units were made and sold without the added pads and all the added updated? Will the customer be able to get the improved version to replace what the have bought?

 

[solarbot]

Hello LithiumSolar:

Hello Eric. Did the right thing: responded. Took action. Obviously familiar with the forum traffic. Karma gained.

How to do it better: respond right away with "detailed response on the way."

 

[Forbisher]

Hey Eric
Great response.
But you do not need to post the Same reply 3 times!

Hello Hedges,

Thank you for your concern; Vibration issues have already been addressed in mass-production. We do not use our customers to test our products. Once products are in Mass Production, all the problems have been identified and fixed. I hope this can bring some clarity.

To be exact, there were (11) Cells with issues out of (10,000) New Lishen Cells purchased from NEC. That is ".0011" of cells having issues which were caught during our (2x) QC Process and never delivered to customers. This was not a design problem but rather a supply chain issue. We take full responsibility for the one (1) leaking cell that managed to slip past our QC dept. to Will Prowse in the Beta unit provided and have replaced this unit with two (2) of our Mass-Production models for free.

To date, we have shipped out over (1,200+) of these Power Blocks and have not had a single customer complain about a leaking cell or pack. If anyone experiences a problem with our batteries - this is what our "10 Year Warranty" was made for. To be clear, (.001%) of our packs will need to be replaced and we are happy to replace these packs for free under our (10) Year Warranty. We have shipped over 37,000 fulfillments without any serous issues and to date we have never had a case of thermal runaway thus our safety rating is higher than Panasonic or LG.

The "Mass Production" model of our "OWL 12V Power Block" and "HAWK 24V Power Block" have been out for a few months now, these models have the following additional safety features as shown below:

1.) Protective 3M Padding on All Sides of the internal case.
2.) Protective 3M Padding on weight disbursement Metal Shelf in Center.
3.) Lock-Nuts incorporated on all PCB/Lead connections for vibration protection.
2.) Added 4th Safety Feature : Built-In Fire Extinguisher on all (Extreme & Max Model) 12V & 24V Power Blocks.

The product Will Prowse reviewed was sent to him (4) Months ago. We have since sent him two (2) units after Mass-Production began. You can see the Mass-Production models shown in his last video and we hope he will open accordingly to show you these updates. Until then, I have taken some recent pictures attached below from our assembly line.

As per the claim that these batteries cannot be installed sideways; If you review the spec sheet for the "170Ah Lishen Cells" used in this design, (Mandarin section 6.5) it states that these cells can be assembled in any direction except for Upside Down. To prevent users from installing Upside Down, we placed the LED read-out and designed a bowed front cover so users will not be placing these cells Upside Down.

In the past (6) Months, we have designed and produced (12) new models of batteries being offered at www.BigBattery.com. As a company, we strive every day to make better products in the USA for our customers and offer these products at the best prices in the country. Our goal is to lower the price of new battery technology for everyone in America. From this experience, We have learned not to share our new products with Will Prowse until they reach Mass-Production.

Thank you for your support as we continue to strive to support our customers.

Humbly,

Eric Lundgren : CEO
www.BigBattery.com

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Was Will a customer or quality control? </snarky comment>

 

[Forbisher]

Was Will a customer or quality control? </snarky comment>

Ummmh, Will got the batteries for Free.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Ummmh, Will got the batteries for Free.

So quality control, then?

 

[solarbot]

1.) Protective 3M Padding on All Sides of the internal case.
2.) Protective 3M Padding on weight disbursement Metal Shelf in Center.
3.) Lock-Nuts incorporated on all PCB/Lead connections for vibration protection.

Mechanical stability has been improved and stress on the terminal leads reduced, very nice. Not to be a pest, but considerable thermal insulation has been added. It might be no issue at all, but what does the internal temperature do at high continuous discharge, say 2C? (A bit over 8kw.) Or maybe 1C is more realistic.

2.) Added 4th Safety Feature : Built-In Fire Extinguisher on all (Extreme & Max Model) 12V & 24V Power Blocks.

Wow! Details?

I like the giant circuit board, it seems mechanically and electrically sound, especially now that mechanical stress on the terminal leads has been reduced by protective padding. It tidies up the inside vs individual BMS wires and most probably reduces manufacturing cost. Terminal studs instead of spot welds as with cylindrical cells mean the unit is field repairable in the event of cell failure, provided replacement cells can be obtained.

I don't like the placement of the Anderson connector, it prevents tidy side-by-side installation (thermal envelope permitting). Next iteration maybe consider moving it to the front, beside the power switch? It would look just as cool and be more practical.

 

[k3nny]

Mechanical stability has been improved and stress on the terminal leads reduced, very nice. Not to be a pest, but considerable thermal insulation has been added. It might be no issue at all, but what does the internal temperature do at high continuous discharge, say 2C? (A bit over 8kw.) Or maybe 1C is more realistic.

Wow! Details?

Details here ^^^

And here ^^^

 

[Q-Dog]

Maybe they could put a knockout on both sides so the anderson connector could be installed on whatever side works best? That way it would be a lot easier to install 2 of these side-by-side.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Does battleborn have fire extinguishers built into their batteries? Do they need to do so? What’s to say this isn’t impressive smoke and mirrors, and/or bandaids to latent underlying real problems?

Edit: I’ll stop now. My intent isn’t to troll. I am just not sold. Time will tell whether these design decisions are good ones.

 

[Hedges]

Details here ^^^

And here ^^^

Parlor trick.
You only put out a class A fire of a few crumpled newspapers.

You've got a PCB made of FR4. "Fire Resistant", won't keep burning after source of heat is removed.
You've got batteries with stored energy and wires.
How about shorting out the battery terminals so PCB gets hot, cells get hot and vent. If it doesn't happen to ignite, ignite it.

We've seen a demo that two punctures of a cell resulted in fire.
One member had a DIY battery and electronics in a van, and the stuff went up - we're not sure what ignited it.

Like to see how your fire extinguisher performs with a fire involving relevant materials present in the product.

 

[tbuechner]

This comment may not have as much to do with BB as Will's testing.
I think Will needs to have the products that he tests be purchased under someone else's name. Will is getting to be too big of a name in this industry and chances are if he order something the company will make sure it is perfect before sending. Not a true sample of production.

 

[k3nny]

Wouldn't be hard to figure out. If it's going to Henderson it's probably Will. My takeaway from @MrGreen's response was that they shouldn't have sent a beta version for Will's review. At the very least, they should have disclosed that it was basically a prototype so that Will could have noted that in his review.

 

[Bud Martin]

Parlor trick.
You only put out a class A fire of a few crumpled newspapers.

You've got a PCB made of FR4. "Fire Resistant", won't keep burning after source of heat is removed.
You've got batteries with stored energy and wires.
How about shorting out the battery terminals so PCB gets hot, cells get hot and vent. If it doesn't happen to ignite, ignite it.

We've seen a demo that two punctures of a cell resulted in fire.
One member had a DIY battery and electronics in a van, and the stuff went up - we're not sure what ignited it.

Like to see how your fire extinguisher performs with a fire involving relevant materials present in the product.

Yep, I like to see real world Torture test. I work for Electronics OEM and I have to withness the test of the products I design being tested at UL lab to make sure it (we have to supply 5 sample units) will pass per UL standard, I have to show all the paper works for the component are UL approved, it is a lot of paper works and very time consuming, each test can cause ten of thousands of Dollars, if it failed I will go back and fix the problem and pay for re test again, if it pass you will be paying yearly fee for anual inspection by UL to be able to keep that UL sticker on the product, and if you change any crictical component you will have to submit that to UL to get approval, it is never ending. UL makes lots of money. Small company cannot reall afford to have compliance test because it is very expensive.

 

[Will Prowse]

I think Will needs to have the products that he tests be purchased under someone else's name. Will is getting to be too big of a name in this industry and chances are if he order something the company will make sure it is perfect before sending. Not a true sample of production.

I agree. I'll think of a way to do this. I am dead tired from testing prototypes. The companies never seem to realize how bad it makes them look to send me pre production stuff. What are they even thinking?

 

[Will Prowse]

Wouldn't be hard to figure out. If it's going to Henderson it's probably Will. My takeaway from @MrGreen's response was that they shouldn't have sent a beta version for Will's review. At the very least, they should have disclosed that it was basically a prototype so that Will could have noted that in his review.

Yeah every offgrid solar company probably eyeballs the billing details of every order going to Henderson. I'll have to think of a strategic way.

Yeah that would be nice. I had no clue about the foam padding till I posted the video. Why would these companies not send me the final product? Remember the ecoflow products and how horribly they failed? Huge waste of time for everyone.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

... UL makes lots of money. Small company cannot reall afford to have compliance test because it is very expensive.

Not to drive the convo off topic, but this seems like a broken system. It’s an unfair barrier to competition and jacks up prices (artificially?).

 

[Gazoo]

Parlor trick.
You only put out a class A fire of a few crumpled newspapers.

You've got a PCB made of FR4. "Fire Resistant", won't keep burning after source of heat is removed.
You've got batteries with stored energy and wires.
How about shorting out the battery terminals so PCB gets hot, cells get hot and vent. If it doesn't happen to ignite, ignite it.

We've seen a demo that two punctures of a cell resulted in fire.
One member had a DIY battery and electronics in a van, and the stuff went up - we're not sure what ignited it.

Like to see how your fire extinguisher performs with a fire involving relevant materials present in the product.

I think if the cells catch on fire it's over. It's true HighTechLab was able to get the cell flaming with a double puncture, and those were big holes he put in the cell. He thinks the second puncture created a spark causing the cell to flame. What is the chance of something like that happening in actual usage? IMO - I do not believe the cells were the cause of the fire in that guys van either.

But lets assume, for some very strange reason, a cell decides to flame up. The little box fire extinguisher would be useless. If the wires or BMS catches fire then maybe it would work. A properly designed battery should not need a built in fire extinguisher to protect it. And LFE cells don't catch on fire unless abused. BTW, I found those little black boxes on Alibaba.

One could short the cell and it would get hot and vent. So what good would a fire extinguisher be in that situation? So start the vented gas on fire. I still think once it gets to that point it's over. I know there are some that will be wow'ed at the little black box. And for some it will give peace of mind. For me it doesn't do anything.

I think the improvements Big Battery made to the wires and box is a plus. I did not know Will received a production model. Sounds to me like he didn't know either. But I question were some prototypes sent to paying customers?

Regarding the leak, has Big Battery or Will defined the source of the leak? Big Battery told HighTechLab the cells they found were leaking from the vent. That does make sense but Eric did not mention the source of the leak in any of his duplicate posts here....lol.

 

[solarbot]

He thinks the second puncture created a spark causing the cell to flame.

I love that video, watched it over and over again with fascination and horror. I'm not seeing the spark theory. Here is an alternate theory: the red hot shorted area is above the ignition temperature of the venting gas but does not ignite it because there is no oxygen supply. Puncturing the cell again sends a puff of air (by moving the whole battery) into the puncture, supplying the missing ingredient for combustion. The resulting ignition produces a strong air flow that sustains the flame. The other gas plume ignites only when exposed to open flame.

Just a theory, strictly amateur. This subject is worthy of serious study. The common wisdom that LFP doesn't catch fire is rather upended. On the other hand we get a hint of the unusual trauma required, so in the end I find it more reassuring than disturbing. I got the takeaway "at least it doesn't ignite spontaneously" like some chemistries we know of. At least not all by itself without a large iron stake jammed through its heart. Theres that.

All by way of saying that I see the eensy weensy built in fire extinguisher as mainly safety theater. I don't hate it but I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there. If there is an internal short extreme enough to vent and ignite gas then it will most probably still be present after the limited amount of extinguishing gas has dissipated. What you really need is a good sized class C extinguisher and a smoke alarm.

 

[Gazoo]

I love that video, watched it over and over again with fascination and horror. I'm not seeing the spark theory. Here is an alternate theory: the red hot shorted area is above the ignition temperature of the venting gas but does not ignite it because there is no oxygen supply. Puncturing the cell again sends a puff of air (by moving the whole battery) into the puncture, supplying the missing ingredient for combustion. The resulting ignition produces a strong air flow that sustains the flame. The other gas plume ignites only when exposed to open flame.

Just a theory, strictly amateur. This subject is worthy of serious study. The common wisdom that LFP doesn't catch fire is rather upended. On the other hand we get a hint of the unusual trauma required, so in the end I find it more reassuring than disturbing. I got the takeaway "at least it doesn't ignite spontaneously" like some chemistries we know of. At least not all by itself without a large iron stake jammed through its heart. Theres that.

All by way of saying that I see the eensy weensy built in fire extinguisher as mainly safety theater. I don't hate it but I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there. If there is an internal short extreme enough to vent and ignite gas then it will most probably still be present after the limited amount of extinguishing gas has dissipated. What you really need is a good sized class C extinguisher and a smoke alarm.

There is nothing wrong with your theory and more research would be nice. I think HiTechLab said he was going to do some more testing. But here is the thing. I have not heard of any cell catching fire unless abused. Will's cell is the only one I know of that has leaked other than the 11 cells big battery claims. I am not saying either hasn't happened but I would think we would have heard about it.

I got tired of the AA and AAA alkaline cells leaking. I mostly use Eneloops and Energizer Lithium's. I still have Eneloops from back in 2007 when they were first released and none have leaked. They still have around 80% capacity and hold a charge for months. Pretty amazing.

Photos have been posted on this forum of cells bloated up so bad from being overcharged they almost look like a balloon and I am surprised they didn't float away. They did not vent and that does concern me. I have no idea what amount of pressure the vent is supposed to vent at.

I have a small class B/C extinguisher and there are smoke alarms and thankfully gas type fire suppressants in the apartment.

I am more concerned about an inverter catching fire then the cells. I bought a cheap Chinese inverter to test the capacity of my cells. It was returned to Amazon because the fans were way too loud and I wasn't planning on keeping it anyways. Other than the fan noise it was ok. Now I have a cheap UPS made by Snadi in China. I will be reviewing it. I know high end inverters have smoked and caught fire.

I do think the little black box is cute and Big Battery is on to something. Perhaps a bigger black box that would fill the battery box cavity with a foam fire suppressant would be more effective. Going by the photos of the improvements they made I would say it's safe enough to buy without the fire extinguisher.

 

[Picasso]

LFP just destroys its self faster in over charge and direct short dropping voltage and charge potential vs li-ion. You wont see it thermal run away unless you get real nasty with it such as puncturing cell layers.

 

[solarbot]

I have a small class B/C extinguisher

I would advocate a nice hefty one, at least 10 pounds. Right up there with eye protection.

 

[solarbot]

LFP just destroys its self faster in over charge and direct short dropping voltage and charge potential vs li-ion. You wont see it thermal run away unless you get real nasty with it such as puncturing cell layers.

I thought that too, but this paper says lifepo4 has thermal runaway at about the same temperature as a number of other chemistries (page 15). The difference is, the temperature rise in thermal runaway is a lot less.

 

[Bob Steel]

I thought that too, but this paper says lifepo4 has thermal runaway at about the same temperature as a number of other chemistries (page 15). The difference is, the temperature rise in thermal runaway is a lot less.

I don't think you are reading it right . Its all very small cells up to 18650.
I am not sure where now but I have seen a treatise on LFP cells the conclusion of which was they do NOT support thermal runaway . The electrolyte will ignite at a voltage over 4.7v I think and requires sustained heat but the plates do not burn and so only the ethelene carbonate burns.

I'll try find it . Its a bit more up to date than yours which refers to articles back to 2003 and are all references are over 5 years old.
In the meantime you may find this comparison of Sodium Ion Cells to Lithium Ion cells entertaining and more up to date

 

[solarbot]

I have seen a treatise on LFP cells the conclusion of which was they do NOT support thermal runaway.

I would like that to be true, any light that can be shed on the question would be much appreciated.