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Let's Get Real about Solar Costs

Sanwizard said:
Not sure about your parts, but my SMA/ LG panel system has been running since 2008 with zero issues.
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In fact, you can't expect a voltronic derivative to survive that long. 2 year max if you're lucky and taking care of it. all this voltronic high voltage PV inverter don't last. There a reason why SMA is the most reliable inverter, no compromise on the design.
 
sergea said:
In fact, you can't expect a voltronic derivative to survive that long. 2 year max if you're lucky and taking care of it. all this voltronic high voltage PV inverter don't last. There a reason why SMA is the most reliable inverter, no compromise on the design.
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I haven't seen anything about high failure rates on them. Did I miss something? I'm curious to read more about it.
 
timselectric said:
I haven't seen anything about high failure rates on them. Did I miss something? I'm curious to read more about it.
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powerforum.co.za is a good resource for anything voltronic base. I have 3 different inverters from them, they all have common bug, and some specific one. I will say in an off-grid configuration only they mostly work. anything else has bug. I switched to deye, its little more expensive but you get something more robust, more versatile with a better design, and 5 yr warranty. voltronic can't compete with it in any area.
 
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sergea said:
powerforum.co.za is a good resource for anything voltronic base. I have 3 different inverters from them, they all have common bug, and some specific one. I will say in an off-grid configuration only they mostly work. anything else has bug. I switched to deye, its little more expensive but you get something more robust, more versatile with a better design, and 5 yr warranty. voltronic can't compete with it in any area.
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Definitely agree about Deye. It can do anything, and for a reasonable price. I consider it the best available.
Thanks, for the other information.
 
timselectric said:
Definitely agree about Deye. It can do anything, and for a reasonable price. I consider it the best available.
Thanks, for the other information.
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Yeah, but Deye in the US is Solark, which is WAY over priced. Now that I know the MPP LV6048WP's I purchased are HF, I may send them back to Ian and just go with SMA.
 
Sanwizard said:
Yeah, but Deye in the US is Solark, which is WAY over priced. Now that I know the MPP LV6048WP's I purchased are HF, I may send them back to Ian and just go with SMA.
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How much would an SMA setup that's comparable to a Sol-Ark 15k cost?
 
Sanwizard said:
Yeah, but Deye in the US is Solark, which is WAY over priced. Now that I know the MPP LV6048WP's I purchased are HF, I may send them back to Ian and just go with SMA.
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Yes, way overpriced. And the split-phase version can't balance the loads between the legs. Straight from Deye is the way to go.
I'm saving a place for two of them, in my system. If I ever get to that phase of the plan. lol
 
timselectric said:
Yes, way overpriced. And the split-phase version can't balance the loads between the legs. Straight from Deye is the way to go.
I'm saving a place for two of them, in my system. If I ever get to that phase of the plan. lol
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Can we get UL certified Deyes here in the USA?
 
Bluedog225 said:
Pretty sure Poz said he got a pair of Sunny Islands for less than $3,000 on ebay. Not sure how that could be possible.

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He got some old used ones iirc. Altestore has them available for $4,781.61 each new. Also it seems like you need both sunny islands and sunny boys to create a typical hybrid system.

So you're looking at over $13k for a similar SMA system not including the extra breakers, wiring and combiners you'd need.
 
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sergea said:
In fact, you can't expect a voltronic derivative to survive that long. 2 year max if you're lucky and taking care of it. all this voltronic high voltage PV inverter don't last. There a reason why SMA is the most reliable inverter, no compromise on the design.
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When I go trolling, I prefer to not only use the right speed and depth, but also the right bait.

If you're gonna go trolling, you should heed that advice.

Get your data out or you're just trolling........
 
niktak11 said:
How much would an SMA setup that's comparable to a Sol-Ark 15k cost?
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Not entirely comparable because SMA PV + battery inverter can add together, or battery inverter can suck down power from PV to battery. For an off-grid system, this allows more oversize PV.

Each Sunny Island battery inverter is 5.75kW continuous (at 25 degrees C), 11kW surge. MSRP $5700, retail $4700, new on eBay $3000.

Sunny Boy battery inverters up to 7.7kW, cost $2000 +/-

For grid-backup, 2x SI + 2x SB, 13.4kW max through relay, maybe $10k.
Off-grid, 2x SI + 3x or 4x SB, 24kW max, $12k to $14k

The current model Sunny Boy are about $0.30/W. I bought new old stock previous models for $0.10/W. Off-grid or earlier installed grid-tie system, doesn't require UL-1471-SA. Might make a 24kW system for $8500. That could actually peak at about 36kW continuous when PV panels are aimed at sun.
 
Hedges said:
Not entirely comparable because SMA PV + battery inverter can add together, or battery inverter can suck down power from PV to battery. For an off-grid system, this allows more oversize PV.

Each Sunny Island battery inverter is 5.75kW continuous (at 25 degrees C), 11kW surge. MSRP $5700, retail $4700, new on eBay $3000.

Sunny Boy battery inverters up to 7.7kW, cost $2000 +/-

For grid-backup, 2x SI + 2x SB, 13.4kW max through relay, maybe $10k.
Off-grid, 2x SI + 3x or 4x SB, 24kW max, $12k to $14k

The current model Sunny Boy are about $0.30/W. I bought new old stock previous models for $0.10/W. Off-grid or earlier installed grid-tie system, doesn't require UL-1471-SA. Might make a 24kW system for $8500. That could actually peak at about 36kW continuous when PV panels are aimed at sun.
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The Sol-ark 15k can do both AC coupling and DC coupling at the same time too in one box. 19.2kW AC + 15kW DC.
 
Hedges said:
Not entirely comparable because SMA PV + battery inverter can add together, or battery inverter can suck down power from PV to battery. For an off-grid system, this allows more oversize PV.

Each Sunny Island battery inverter is 5.75kW continuous (at 25 degrees C), 11kW surge. MSRP $5700, retail $4700, new on eBay $3000.

Sunny Boy battery inverters up to 7.7kW, cost $2000 +/-

For grid-backup, 2x SI + 2x SB, 13.4kW max through relay, maybe $10k.
Off-grid, 2x SI + 3x or 4x SB, 24kW max, $12k to $14k

The current model Sunny Boy are about $0.30/W. I bought new old stock previous models for $0.10/W. Off-grid or earlier installed grid-tie system, doesn't require UL-1471-SA. Might make a 24kW system for $8500. That could actually peak at about 36kW continuous when PV panels are aimed at sun.
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How am I just now hearing about SMA? I've been researching like crazy for a long time and they never came up until now. And yet, this morning I searched eBay and found a boat load of SMA stuff for sale. It almost feels like SMA went out of business and now there's tons of equipment circulating through after-market channels, with lots of people divesting themselves of used SMA equipment. What's the story? Did I somehow just miss them in all my Googling over the past year? How do they rank, quality and price wise, compared to some of the other brands I've seen out there, like Sol Ark, Midnite Solar, MPP, Growatt, and EG4?
 
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forbin said:
What's the story?
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SNA is still in business and a well regarded manufacturer. They are expensive but the glut of used product is a result of a bankruptcy of a company that made DC trailers using SMA inverters.They are UL listed and considered top tier, whereas the ones you listed are probably not.
 
Ampster said:
SNA is still in business and a well regarded manufacturer. They are expensive but the glut of used product is a result of a bankruptcy of a company that made DC trailers using SMA inverters.They are UL listed and considered top tier, whereas the ones you listed are probably not.
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Thanks for the backstory. I assume support is not available through SMA for equipment purchased used?

(Also, I added Sol Ark, Midnite Solar, and Growatt to my list before I saw your comment. For anyone else reading the thread, when @Ampster said the ones I listed were probably not UL listed, I had only mentioned MPP and EG4 at that point.)
 
sergea said:
In fact, you can't expect a voltronic derivative to survive that long. 2 year max if you're lucky and taking care of it. all this voltronic high voltage PV inverter don't last. There a reason why SMA is the most reliable inverter, no compromise on the design.
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I have to disagree with this. My MPP LV6548's have been running flawless since I built my first setup. If you check others like DMI inc and DANF, they have had great success with similar setups.
You can find those folks on Youtube.


 
Ampster said:
SNA is still in business and a well regarded manufacturer. They are expensive but the glut of used product is a result of a bankruptcy of a company that made DC trailers using SMA inverters.They are UL listed and considered top tier, whereas the ones you listed are probably not.
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www.forbes.com

Solar Power Ponzi Couple Pleads Guilty In Billion-Dollar Fraud

An auction of the Carpoffs’ 140 cars fetched $8.3 million. Highlights included a 1969 Plymouth Road Runner and a 1978 Pontiac Trans-Am once owned by Burt Reynolds.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
forbin said:
Thanks for the backstory. I assume support is not available through SMA for equipment purchased used?

(Also, I added Sol Ark, Midnite Solar, and Growatt to my list before I saw your comment. For anyone else reading the thread, when @Ampster said the ones I listed were probably not UL listed, I had only mentioned MPP and EG4 at that point.)
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SMA will provide support in the form of information, at least. I think they have become slower responding, whether due to more inquiries or reduction in staff I don't know. SMA America seems to have added people doing marketing fluff.

At least one forum member who bought a DC Solar trailer reported having a Sunny Island replaced by SMA.

The trailers sold were mostly inventory, new systems built with Sunny Islands, would have been expected to be under warranty at least to original purchaser. Then they passed through auction and dealer's hands. Inverters are also offered new in the box, or open box. Midnight Solar bought a quantity and resold, indicating SMA wouldn't provide warranty but Midnight would for 1 year.

In practice, you or may not get warranty from SMA for the duration starting on manufacture date. But, the products will likely never break, at least not during their 10 year warranty.

If you like Sunny Island, buy them now, probably about 50% off retail.
Best use is AC coupled with Sunny Boy. New models if UL-1741-SA required in your area for grid-tie. Off-grid, you can get used or old stock older models cheaper.
We hear of people updating firmware to fix issues in various brands. I never have, just use what came from the factory. Oldest firmware doesn't talk to BMS of lithium. Newest doesn't talk to Midnight's data interface for their Classic SCC.
 
forbin said:
How am I just now hearing about SMA? I've been researching like crazy for a long time and they never came up until now. And yet, this morning I searched eBay and found a boat load of SMA stuff for sale. It almost feels like SMA went out of business and now there's tons of equipment circulating through after-market channels, with lots of people divesting themselves of used SMA equipment. What's the story? Did I somehow just miss them in all my Googling over the past year? How do they rank, quality and price wise, compared to some of the other brands I've seen out there, like Sol Ark, Midnite Solar, MPP, Growatt, and EG4?
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I think SMA is the best equipment available. Expensive purchase price (for battery inverters) but lifespan may make up for that.
Functionality in Firmware may not do everything you want for gaming time of use. But perfect for just functioning on/backup/off grid.

Take advantage of what's being dumped, if functionality does what you want.
I would expect the European model Sunny Island to come here eventually, with more time of use features, optional 200A external transfer switch, full retail price.
There is also a 3-phase hybrid PV/battery inverter in Europe. Based on Sunny Boy, will be wimpy for motor starting surge.
 
forbin said:
You make a good point about sellers being here in 10 years to honor their warranties. That's worth thinking hard about. I have a different take on the money being gone, though. In my view, the money is not gone. It's still there, it just looks different. It used to look like numbers on a bank's web page, but now it looks like a wall of equipment. A lot of the money is right there in front of me, only in physical form. For the past few years, I've been spending about $200/mo. on energy, which all comes from propane. (We live off grid.) If I can install a DIY solar system for $20K that lasts 10 years, then I'll break even based on today's rates. However, I will also lock in today's energy costs and insulate myself from inflation, and guard against supply-chain problems. If an inverter craps out in 5 years, by then it should be cheap to get a replacement one with similar specs even considering inflation (if we stretch Moore's Law to apply to more than just ICs). Possibly the same could be true of batteries? In any case, I should probably start saving for replacement parts right after I buy the system.
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If you really want the warranty then look for sellers and manufacturers that have their warranty underwritten by an insurance policy from a large stable insurance company. If you think that insurance company may possibly fail, make sure that large stable insurance company has a retrocession in place where its risk it shared with other insurers. Alternatively bank some utility savings to have it available to replace failed units. With high Inflation, Moores law is netted out in the long run to be less effective.
 
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