Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
@Max Bender , please terminology. You are talking about Cells, a Battery is a pack of cells assembled together. 4x3.2v Cells = 1, 12.8v battery pack. also each battery pack requires a BMS adding cost.
LiFePO4 questions
- Thread starter pdus
- Start date
Max Bender
New Member
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Yikes!!! $5604.05 for thirty-two $200aH batteries versus $3146.74 for thirty-two 150aH batteries??? That's $2439.31 more for an increase of only 50aH per battery (see pdus's link at beginning of thread)!!! For $688 more than the cost of thirty-two 200aH batteries, you can get sixty-four 150aH batteries!!!
Max Bender
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Cells, battery, battery pack, battery bank - I understand, although I fail to see how the cost of a BMS is relevant to the definition or difference between a cell, a battery, or a battery whatever. I suppose that the cost of a BMS can be added as a side note but the cost of a BMS was not the basis of your point. Even if it's argued that a battery isn't a battery without a BMS, the cost of a BMS is still irrelevant to the discussion of what defines a cell, a battery, or battery whatever. That is unless you mentioned the cost as a side note. Are you saying that a battery isn't a battery without a BMS? And did you mentioned the additional cost of a BMS as a side note?
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Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
Calmness is your friend.
BMS is a cost on top of the cells, bus bars, container (if using one) & related wiring.
Cells or battery or whatever... seriously ? they all mean different things... it IS relevant unless you wish to obfuscate for some reason. Clarity & consistency reduces confusion and helps better understanding.
BMS is a cost on top of the cells, bus bars, container (if using one) & related wiring.
Cells or battery or whatever... seriously ? they all mean different things... it IS relevant unless you wish to obfuscate for some reason. Clarity & consistency reduces confusion and helps better understanding.
Sorry but I can not find DELIGREN right now has (8) 200aH 3.2V Grade A - delivered - for $880 do you have a link for this? Does grade A mean slightly used or new?
ghostwriter66
"Here - Hold my Beer"
Grade A means its still has that NEW CAR SMELL NEW ...
I HAVE NO AFFILIATION WITH THESE GUYS BUT drop April Cao at DELIGREN a note asking for a quote and she will send you one ... her email is
sales9@deligreenpower.com
She is excellent to work with ... The website is www.deligreen.en.alibaba.com ...
Max Bender
New Member
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It was for consistency - to remain within the context of the thread is why I'd referred to a battery as being a cell. Or did you not notice that others before me had called a battery a cell? It's true that correct terminology makes things easy to understand by everyone contributing in the thread. But rather than single out one person for what you'd perceived as having offended your oh-so-brilliant mind, don't you think that you'd have been better served if you had added a glossary to the thread so that everyone could have benefited from it? It's possible that some people have found our exchange amusing but it's probable that no one has appreciated it. Whether or not you'll share your knowledge rather than use it to target people doesn't matter to me since I'm not a moderator. So be as you are, think as you will, do what you wish; and good luck.
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Darkstar
Rain Wrangler
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- Dec 31, 2019
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I can't find those on the deligreen store. Can you post a link?
JeepHammer
Solar Wizard
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- Nov 15, 2019
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If this helps, something I did for another guy interested in 48 Volt DIY
If you stick the battery under a bench, Same 16 Square Battery laid out a little different...
The under bench version of a 16 Square battery,
This one center taps for Positive/Negative if you need a center tap battery instead of end tap.
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ghostwriter66
"Here - Hold my Beer"
For the Deligren deal - and I HAVE NO AFFILIATION WITH THESE GUYS -- BUT drop April Cao at DELIGREN a note asking for a quote and she will send you one ... her email is sales9@deligreenpower.com
She is excellent to work with ... The website is www.deligreen.en.alibaba.com ...
Max Bender
New Member
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No message here - no longer responding to the know-it-all, alpha nitwit who fails to realize that the only person who matters in this LiFePo4 Questions thread is the person who started it.
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Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
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*** PLUS DELIVERY ***
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
BU-302: Series and Parallel Battery Configurations
BU-1101: Glossary
Serial and Parallel Battery Configurations and Information
Read about serial and parallel battery configurations. Connecting battery cells gains higher voltages or achieves improved current loading.
batteryuniversity.com
BU-1101: Glossary
BU-1101: Glossary – Battery University
Learn about battery technology, battery maintenance and battery life at Battery University
batteryuniversity.com
ghostwriter66
"Here - Hold my Beer"
But isn't THAT actually a message in itself? LOL
Headsup I talked to April this morning. She said they won't be shipping until after the Holiday is over on February 2nd.
JeepHammer
Solar Wizard
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- Nov 15, 2019
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I build a lot industrial machines, and the rule is, sacrifice the cheap parts, and have a plan for total disaster.
Life & Limb come first, then saving as much of the unit/system as possible.
*IF* your panel/panels are screwed directly to the common posts on a charge controller, then you have no management of the panels,
Which is just fine *IF* the system is small enough & fairly well balanced.
Just keep in mind that everything is directly connected and any problem in any panel will get fed by the other panels this way.
Most panels have bypass diodes built into them, so you get some level of protection passively.
I fuse (easy to use and cheap fuses) at the panel combiner.
No excuse for NOT doing this, there are even MC4 inline fuses available for cheap.
A little 'Waterproof' box is about $10, and since the panels are fairly low amps at this point, it's a good place for small, cheap reversion diodes and little fuses, also dirt cheap.
It's panel management, which you don't get with the MC4 connector stuff.
Makes panel reconfiguration MUCH easier since you aren't messing with MC4 splitters/combiners 'On Order' when you want to do something different, and you don't have to chase all those little connections down to find a problem.
I use breakers in the Combiner box, since as the name suggests, the power goes up considerably when everything combines headed for the charge controller.
I know 'Technically' a breaker isn't a rated Disconnect, but it works for 99% of people, and breakers kill two birds with one stone that way.
Isolation isn't discussed at all that I can tell past 'Blocking' to stop reversion at night, the battery heating the panels.
Charge controllers won't allow that now so it's not well understood,
Isolation between panel strings so the rest of the panels can't cook a bad panel cell or panel string in larger systems is something I have seen personally.
Older, lesser panels being cooked when the charge controller shuts down, Voc issue, and in short order, when everything is combined,
Smaller/Lesser panels directly connected at the combiner box, there is no such thing as Voc, the smaller/lesser panels become Resistance Load to the rest of the panels, and it's an unregulated Vmp problem for the lesser.
People with all brand new matched panels with bypass diodes in place won't have this issue, but as you expand, or as panels age, I will guarantee it will pop up.
As for the discussion on WHERE to put protections,
As close to production source as is practical.
It takes about 5 minutes & $1 to put a fuse in the positive line box on the back of the panel.
In a panel combiner box, again, about $1 per fuse, and all the fuses are in one place.
Any given panel WIRING is compromised, the fuse saves the WIRING to the combiner box, and potentially the panel.
The circuit breakers in combiner box save the WIRING between combiner and panels.
Keep in mind the 'Production Source' becomes Load at night, and any issues in switching/routing CAN charge the panels at night.
Again, that breaker is a disconnect for the panel string without disconnecting the entire panel bank/array.
Once combined, the Vmp changes again, so it's time for another breaker between combiner buss and charge controller.
Consider this a 'Main Breaker' or Disconnect so the charge controller/controllers can be serviced.
The charge controller has 'Blocking' or Anti-Reversion protection before the 'Battery Out' line, but the charger battery line is also full time 'Hot'.
It's up to you how to deal with this.
*IF* my charger line goes directly to battery power, it gets a breaker.
*IF* my charger line goes to the inverter connection, it's covered by the main battery breaker/disconnect, and these runs are generally very short in my builds and often doesn't get a dedicated breaker.
Battery Breakers are always as close to battery source as possible, and there might be one connection directly to the batteries,
Fire detection & counter measures.
I build in automatic disconnect for everything but fire, if the fire alert is tripped, the battery and panels are automatically disconnected and the circuits are held open by the battery, as well as battery powering these circuits so there is no chance of interruption.
It's the last ditch, SCRAM the system to save the system counter measures.
I will sacrifice the system to save life & limb.
It's all in what you want to do, none of it is difficult, and when you consider the cost of a big system, a $200 high amp contactor is cheap to save Life & Limb, and 'SCRAM' the system to try and save as much as possible in the even of something catastrophic.
Max Bender
New Member
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Indeed it is. And to all my fellow lithium lovers and solar freaks, I apologize sincerely. It is never my intention to allow a thread to become side-tracked when the reason for my entry into any thread is always with a desire to do whatever I can along with others in the pursuit of assisting the originator of a thread to succeed in his or her endeavor. Not only that, but the more I'm able to contribute to a thread, the more knowledge I gain in return.
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