Living with the DuroMAX XP9000iH

[SacRV]

Ok so I posted on facebook about a similar issue I've been having with my generator and my friend found this thread for me. I own a duromax xp 4500iH. I mainly use it on propane as that's what I prefer to use while I'm camping. I'm on my second unit with the same problem. The first unit burned out the front panel right away last year while camping and I was sent another to replace it. Well after a little more use this year the same thing happened to the second one. Front panel won't turn on and one of the fuses behind the main panel is blown. Not happy about the situation I decided to wrap some foil on the fuse and see if I could keep it running as I wasn't entirely sure why it keeps blowing the fuse. Well it started and ran for about 10 seconds before it started smoking. I called duromax and they are actually sending me a full refund. I'm looking to find a good brand that will actually run on propane without this issue, so if anyone can suggest a decent duel fuel inverter generator around 4500watts that would be great. Also the my real reason for posting is I'm wondering if anything can be done to possibly get these (now two) generators I have running again. Like I said the first one has been blowing fuses like stated and the second one now that I tried to hotwire smoked smothing else and I'm not sure what to do about either one of these? Can I salvage them at all? Thanks in advance. @Symbioquine

That's interesting, I have the same generator as a backup to our HP9000iX. It's only had minimal use on propane with no problems. I think in moving forward I will use it primarily on gas if necessary.

As far as other brands, look into the Westinghouse or perhaps the Genmax, which I just got. Regardless what you get I'd strongly consider an extended warranty.

Our of curiosity, does anyone know what amp these fuses are? Let's say they're 10 amp, do you think going up to a 12.5 amp would be too risky?

 

[Hedges]

On the DuroMAX XP9000iH, it is located just inside the housing on the left hand side of the little panel that comes off for doing oil changes. It probably has a brass base with a black hose going in/out of it near the bottom and a cylindrical part above that with two wires coming off it. The one from the DuroMAX XP9000iH looks like this;

View attachment 144379

Obviously, it could be different on the Genmax which is why I asked

That solenoid has a label for "DC12V" and "50/60Hz"??

Operated on AC, solenoids probably draw higher current for pull-in, then reduce current to hold due to how magnetic core affects AC impedance.
Operated on DC, current is limited only by resistance, not by inductance.

There are various designs of "economizer" which reduce current for hold. Simplest solution could be to select a thermistor of suitable size. It will be low resistance at first and allow full current to flow, then heat up (quite hot) and increase in resistance. You need to mount it where it won't burn plastic/insulation. After power is removed, it will take time to cool before it resets and can operate again.

If you hooked up an AC transformer to produce 12Vrms AC, you could add a relay. For starting, 12VDC battery operates the solenoid. When AC appears, it pulls SPDT relay to switch coil's supply from 12VDC to 12VAC. I suggest adding an RC snubber across the contacts that switch DC. Although the contacts may not be a big issue generator normally shuts off due to "run/stop" signal. If it shuts off due to running out of fuel, then relay will close onto hot 12V source, bounce, and could weld.

 

[Symbioquine]

That solenoid has a label for "DC12V" and "50/60Hz"??

Yeah, I wondered about that too @Hedges... My best guess was either poor labeling or some sort of reference to the maximum switching response time. Since it is 50/60Hz, it certainly suggests the former though.

 

[butters3686]

Does anyone know where I might be able to find this part for my duromax?

 

[Symbioquine]

Does anyone know where I might be able to find this part for my duromax?

As far as I know, you pretty much just have to call DuroMAX and ask. I haven't found a good third-party source of exact part matches - except common things like spark plugs.

Please let us know how it goes...

 

[butters3686]

As far as I know, you pretty much just have to call DuroMAX and ask. I haven't found a good third-party source of exact part matches - except common things like spark plugs.

Please let us know how it goes...

So, actually I decided to take a chance on it and resolder that pin that got burned up back into the board and believe it or not I put some gas in it and it fired up (after replacing the blown out fuse again as well)! So I have two (free) working generators now lol. They are both only running on gas but hey I'll take it. I'm probably going to try and list them for $600/piece as gas only generators now but I'm hoping to be able to get another duel fuel generator.

 

[Symbioquine]

I decided to take a chance on it and resolder that pin that got burned up back into the board and believe it or not I put some gas in it and it fired up

Nice! Sounds tricky... Were you able to get access to the back of the board? How hard was it to get the potting material off (black coating) off? Pictures of the process?

I'm probably going to try and list them for $600/piece as gas only generators now

You're probably already thinking of these things, but if you plan to sell them, I'd recommend;

• Disconnect the wire going to the solenoid valve so that it just won't start (it will turn over, but not catch) if someone tries to run it on propane instead of blowing that fuse again.
• Add a label to the front that indicates the generator cannot run on propane.
• Explain how/why it is broken and point them to this thread - especially for the one which you had to solder the pin back into since that repair might fail down the road or there could be other things that are fragile due to the attempted fuse bypass.

 

[SacRV]

A quick update.

I got a call from the repair shop on Friday saying DuroMax is releasing the control boards that have been held up in customs for the last several months. I was disappointed to hear DuroMax wants to try and repair it again even though it's failed to be repaired twice now.

I contacted my DuroMax contact and he too was surprised to hear DuroMax is actually going to try and replace the panel..again. They seem to be so focused on the panel yet it sounds like the fuel solenoid as the culprit.

Regardless, if it pass testing after the panel replacement and I get it back I plan on selling it. The new Genmax seems to be running well and with the internal engine fan I think it will perform better in the summer.

 

[Symbioquine]

They seem to be so focused on the panel yet it sounds like the fuel solenoid as the culprit.

It's actually possible that replacing/upgrading the panel could help. Depending on how it is connected to the solenoid, they could potentially update the design to reduce solenoid failures.

If the solenoid activation comes directly enough from the panel, they could take advantage of the principle that @Hedges was discussing above;

Operated on DC, current is limited only by resistance, not by inductance.

There are various designs of "economizer" which reduce current for hold.

The new panel would need to be designed to first apply a higher starting voltage to activate the solenoid, then reduce the voltage for the duration of the generator run cycle.

Obviously, any such repair/upgrade would also still need to replace the front panel fuse and solenoid if those are already blown.

Additionally, it might be wise to add a dedicated inline fuse for the solenoid (so the front panel and gasoline operation are not impacted by solenoid failure) and maybe a auto-resetting thermal cut out mounted directly on the solenoid (to interrupt generator operation if the solenoid starts to get into a temperature range where it is likely to fail).

 

[SacRV]

A few weeks went by and no word from the repair shop so I called and was only able to leave a message requesting an update. The following day I get a call from a freight company to schedule the delivery of a new generator. I immediately contacted DuroMax and reminded them of their policy, to refund if a generator is unrepairable after 2 attempts. They were able to recall the generator delivery and agreed to process a refund, which is also taking some time.

Presumably the new control panel they sent the repair shop didn't fix the generator.

I think the issue is we paid $2,826 and now it sells for $1,999 on Amazon. DuroMax would have preferred to just send me another one and certainly don't want to refund me more then what they're selling for now. But hopefully they will honor their decision and I'll get my refund soon.

I will say the new Genmax has been running great, although we have yet to get into the heat of summer where these things tend to fail. So we'll see...

 

[Symbioquine]

A few weeks went by and no word from the repair shop so I called and was only able to leave a message requesting an update. The following day I get a call from a freight company to schedule the delivery of a new generator. I immediately contacted DuroMax and reminded them of their policy, to refund if a generator is unrepairable after 2 attempts. They were able to recall the generator delivery and agreed to process a refund, which is also taking some time.

Presumably the new control panel they sent the repair shop didn't fix the generator.

I think the issue is we paid $2,826 and now it sells for $1,999 on Amazon. DuroMax would have preferred to just send me another one and certainly don't want to refund me more then what they're selling for now. But hopefully they will honor their decision and I'll get my refund soon.

I will say the new Genmax has been running great, although we have yet to get into the heat of summer where these things tend to fail. So we'll see...

Thanks for the update! I hope your refund goes through without a hitch!

It's a big bummer that all these "failed units" probably just end up in landfills... I wouldn't mind having a few of the carcasses around for spare parts, but they're just bulky enough that shipping them around is likely problematic.

 

[Symbioquine]

I finally got around to experimenting with the ATS plug on my DuroMAX XP9000iH units...

The "Power Equipment Forum" posts I previously found here only seem to be partially accurate.

• The plug on my units is in fact a GX20-8 aviation plug which can found bought on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09BMYZK9R/
• The pinout diagram is not accurate for my units (see below)
• The starting procedure is different for my units (see below)

Here's what I've determined for about the plug on my units:



If the start switch (The red rocker switch labeled "START UP") is on, then connecting pins 2 and 3 for two seconds will tell the generator to start itself. Once it has started, connecting those two pins again will tell the generator to turn itself off. This is the same as pressing the big round start/stop button by hand.

 

[Symbioquine]

Reserving this post for possible follow-ups (if needed) about ATS plug or automating starting/stopping...

 

[Skypower]

Reserving this post for possible follow-ups (if needed) about ATS plug or automating starting/stopping...

Have you found any shop manuals or wiring diagrams. Probably the most ambiguous company I’ve ever seen.

 

[Symbioquine]

Have you found any shop manuals or wiring diagrams. Probably the most ambiguous company I’ve ever seen.

I'd love a shop manual for it, but sadly no. That's part of why I started this thread in the hopes that folks who have them (and similar generators) can build up some community knowledge around how to hack on them and keep them running.

As for wiring diagrams, the nice folks at Atkinson Electronics were able to provide the following; (I'm not sure if I am supposed to be sharing them further, but it seems like critical information that DuroMAX should already be providing in their manual.)

 

[littleboss]

I shared the concerns about the fuel solenoid with my contact at DuroMax and this was his response..FWIW.

Thanks for sending that over. I’ve had my concerns on that solenoid for a while because I have seen some issues that stem from it. I know that piece was changed up (in design) but the issue is that a lot of old stock still has potential to run into the issue. The weird part is that it isn’t a high-quantity problem across the units in general, but it seems that it has something to do with the issues in the cases where problems do occur. The downside here is that I’ve tooled around with the same idea. I’m not sure who this person spoke with, but based on their wording, I can certainly tell you that it wasn’t me. Where I saw an issue with this “fix” is that the solenoid, for lack of better words, isn’t compatible with the PCB (computer). Solenoids generally operate one way… once power is received, the solenoid operates. This implies the signal needs to be momentary, and on-demand. The PCB in these inverters sends a constant signal… which now you can see why the solenoids, that do burn out, have their issues. The issue really boils down to a solenoid not holding up to the specs it was designed for. I have mentioned on several occasions to several shops that we can always try the parts (I can reimburse) and see what we get. After field testing on some other units, let’s just say my confidence in the solution is not high. The new units have been adjusted with a different setup/part just to account for the issue. It’s weird territory though. 9kWiH units, in general, do not have this problem as a common issue (which is why we are so willing to replace – generally the issue is an afterthought at that point), BUT I would also say that when they do have issues, then this problem is more common than other. Basically, it's not a mass-defect situation, but it is something we’re aware of and have changed. The issue is really that the old stock doesn’t see those changes…and this includes replacement units that dip into old stock.

found this thread while researching gensets with ATS support. A solenoid doesn't operate as you say. A solenoid has a coil of wire with a plunger inside. When voltage is applied to the coil, this creates magnetism which pulls in the plunger. For the solenoid to remain "on" the control voltage has to stay applied to the coil.. The signal is NOT momentary.
The problem is the entire time you are on propane there is current running through the coil. Obviously Duramax has a poor design or used a solenoid who's coil can't tolerate that much current over a long period..

The electronic ball values seem to take care of that problem: ALTERNATIVE TO SOLENOID VALVES- Automatically cuts off power once fully open or fully closed; This reduces likelihood of overheating, making it a great alternative to solenoid valves for projects where a valve needs to be open for an extended period of time.

This review shows that current does flow all of the time just not much so still should be fine:
Product description says: "No power expended once fully open or fully closed". Testing (DC model) shows continuous 5ma draw after actuation in either direction. (30ma during open/close, testing at 19V)


https://www.amazon.com/Motorized-El...locphy=9026799&hvtargid=pla-379266017244&th=1

 

[Symbioquine]

A solenoid doesn't operate as you say. A solenoid has a coil of wire with a plunger inside. When voltage is applied to the coil, this creates magnetism which pulls in the plunger. For the solenoid to remain "on" the control voltage has to stay applied to the coil.. The signal is NOT momentary.
The problem is the entire time you are on propane there is current running through the coil. Obviously Duramax has a poor design or used a solenoid who's coil can't tolerate that much current over a long period..

I'm not an expert, but I believe this is an incomplete/misleading summary of the operating and failure modes of solenoids. As @Hedges described earlier in this thread, you can design your control circuit to reduce the current once the solenoid has activated. Also, to a lesser degree, the current will intrinsically self-limit as a function of magnetic saturation and the operating temperature of the solenoid. (Though this effect won't protect the solenoid if the resulting equilibrium temperature exceeds the safe operating temperature of the varnish on the coil for example.)

I haven't measured the behaviour of the control circuitry and current draw of the solenoid in the DuroMAX units I've got, but presumably there's some mismatch between the typical operating conditions and the solenoids they used that causes them to burn out. Both the motorized ball valve and the solenoid will have some typical life expectancy (especially in a warm vibrating engine compartment) - the engineering problem here isn't making them last forever, just a reasonably long time.

I can't speculate on whether they've fixed the issue in newer stock of course.

 

[littleboss]

I'm not an expert, but I believe this is an incomplete/misleading summary of the operating and failure modes of solenoids. As @Hedges described earlier in this thread, you can design your control circuit to reduce the current once the solenoid has activated. Also, to a lesser degree, the current will intrinsically self-limit as a function of magnetic saturation and the operating temperature of the solenoid. (Though this effect won't protect the solenoid if the resulting equilibrium temperature exceeds the safe operating temperature of the varnish on the coil for example.)

I haven't measured the behaviour of the control circuitry and current draw of the solenoid in the DuroMAX units I've got, but presumably there's some mismatch between the typical operating conditions and the solenoids they used that causes them to burn out. Both the motorized ball valve and the solenoid will have some typical life expectancy (especially in a warm vibrating engine compartment) - the engineering problem here isn't making them last forever, just a reasonably long time.

I can't speculate on whether they've fixed the issue in newer stock of course.

Latching current CAN be less than pulling in current but I bet Duromax uses a steady current that doesn't change- therefore the solenoid coil burns up. i assume you think your statement below makes you look like you know what you are talking about? It doesn't........... LOL

Also, to a lesser degree, the current will intrinsically self-limit as a function of magnetic saturation and the operating temperature of the solenoid. (Though this effect won't protect the solenoid if the resulting

 

[Symbioquine]

I bet Duromax uses a steady current that doesn't change

I'd bet the same, but since their support person indicated otherwise it might be worth additional investigation. The solenoid is definitely driven from a board which is complex enough it could provide different initial and holding voltages. I haven't looked closely enough to see if it just uses a relay/FET to switch 12v nominal power to the solenoid or if it is more sophisticated.

i assume you think your statement below makes you look like you know what you are talking about? It doesn't........... LOL

I can only assume you're trying to troll. I literally started my post with "I am not an expert". If you want to provide a better explanation of solenoid behavior or failure modes, please do, but don't waste everyone's time implying irrelevant things about my motives in writing what I've written. Please stay on topic.

 

[Hedges]

I'd bet the same, but since their support person indicated otherwise it might be worth additional investigation. The solenoid is definitely driven from a board which is complex enough it could provide different initial and holding voltages. I haven't looked closely enough to see if it just uses a relay/FET to switch 12v nominal power to the solenoid or if it is more sophisticated.

Do you have one? Can you measure the current?

An economizer could simply be a series resistor and a transistor to bypass it.
Given previous failures I'm betting they just apply battery voltage. Maybe redesigned later.

AC works nicely because core pulling in provides economizer function. Most DC relays and solenoids just use resistance to limit current, but that limits pull-in power. Lots of parts are rated for intermittent use only, like when cranking an engine. I'd think glow-plug relay would be one (and those are/were magnetic latching.) Need one rated for continuous duty.

Costs more money (pennies?) to add an economizer for DC.
If they located relay where it got cooled by air before that's blown over the engine, or in the intake airflow, that would probably make all the difference.
Stanadyne "Pump Mounted Driver" of my K2500 is known for heat failures. There are various relocating kits. I relocated mine to the air box, which guarantees outside air drawn over it any time it is operating. And no longer cooked by heat of the block, or dependent on left pump to keep excess fuel flow for cooling.

 

[Symbioquine]

Do you have one? Can you measure the current?

Planning on it - though it might take me a bit to get to it since I'm not doing much with the generators this time of year except starting them periodically for maintenance purposes.

 

[TBoone]

Some things I've learned about the DuroMAX XP9000iH - hopefully some of this will help other folks:

Similar Generators

This generator is very similar to the following generators which can be used (with a grain of salt) as a reference when looking for helpful reviews, alternate manual descriptions, and parts/wiring diagrams.

• Predator 9500 Inverter Generator
• GENMAX GM9000iED
• TOMAHAWK TG9000i

Fuel Solenoid & Hidden Fuses

• If used regularly on propane, the fuel solenoid will burn out since it isn't rated for continuous duty (part claims 8 hours duty cycle, but realistically its days are numbered regardless in a hot vibrating engine compartment)
• When the fuel solenoid burns out, it behaves like a serious short and blows a little glass fuse (F15AL250V) behind the front panel (where all the plugs/indicators are)
• There are three such little glass fuses (of different ratings) in inline holders behind the front panel which seems like one of the less user serviceable places on the generator
• The fuse that the fuel solenoid causes to blow also means the whole front panel ends up unpowered - making the whole generator look dead
• DuroMAX's support line didn't know want or know how to walk me through even that level of troubleshooting so they sent me a whole new generator under warranty - I don't feel bad about this since I basically begged them to help me troubleshoot the one I already had and cumulatively spent more than an hour on hold
• With a dead fuel solenoid, this generator can still work on gasoline just by unplugging the fuel solenoid and replacing the blown fuse
• The fuel solenoid can be replaced with a motorized ball valve which should have a much longer service life - don't bother trying to get the barbed elbows off the original solenoid since they used some crazy locktite seal stuff and there's no place to put a wrench on the solenoid, instead just get these ones to go with the motorized ball valve linked above
• I'm still experimenting with the motorized ball valve strategy above. The main downside seems to be that it is a bit slower than the fuel solenoid which can allow a tiny amount of fuel to flow after it normally would, resulting in a backfire during normal shutdown

CO Sensor

• The CO sensor is very sensitive and is inside the case of the generator with the engine - any wind or attempt to shelter the generator from the wind/rain will almost certainly cause nuisance tripping of the sensor
• Unplugging the CO sensor does not prevent the generator from starting, but it does not operate normally - the oil warning light comes on and the engine runs in a weird surging version of the low idle
• I'm experimenting with operating the generator with the CO sensor removed by tying the green/yellow striped wire with the white wire that lead towards the area below the starter on the engine as shown on this video
  
  • (Please don't lecture me about the safety risks of doing this: The generator will always be operated in an outdoor enclosure away from people. It is too loud to comfortably stand near under load. We have CO sensors/alarms in our nearby living spaces. I intend to label the generator clearly to indicate that it does not have a CO sensor.)
  • Somewhat related: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/2021-honda-generator-carbon-monoxide-indicator.25808/
• I don't know whether the low oil shutdown is still functional in this configuration
• Instead of cutting the wires as shown in that video, a replacement plug can be made that shorts the two relevant pins and leaves the rest unconnected. I found that the connector was the same as one from an old computer power supply board;
  View attachment 134616View attachment 134615View attachment 134614

Efficiency on Propane

See https://diysolarforum.com/threads/how-efficient-is-your-generator.50418/

Handle Swap

The generator has two kinds of handles, the horizontal bar handles which are located on both ends of the generator and the folding ones that are bolted on to the horizontal bar handle on one end of the generator.

The folding handles can be moved from the back end of the generator to the end with the front panel. This is useful if you're storing the unit in a tight space, but still want access to the front panel - for example to plug in the battery maintainer.

I saw one Youtube comment that referred to moving the handles by drilling new holes in the other end's horizontal bar handles, but I can't recommend that strategy. The horizontal bar handles are interchangeable, but not identical. The back end has a shorter foam pad on the horizontal bar handle that fits between the bracket for the folding handles, but the corresponding foam pad on the front horizontal bar handle goes the full length. I'm pretty sure the bracket for the folding handles wouldn't fit over the foam pad nicely, and it would leave the rear handle with some unnecessary holes and a short foam pad. It's better to also swap the horizontal handles as part of moving the folding handles to the front.

Moving the handles from one end to the other doesn't require any actual modifications to the hardware, but is fairly involved because you have to take the wheels and all four clam-shell sides off the generator. Once that's done, it is simply a matter of removing the 4 bolts that hold the folding handles on, unbolting and sliding the two horizontal bar handles out and swapping them, then re-attaching the folding handles on the front of the generator.

When taking the clam-shell sides off the generator, make sure not to lose these little clips;

View attachment 135232

Future Possible Parts

When the fuel solenoid issue happened, I was worried that it might be one of the main boards (control or inverter) so I spent some time looking for possible replacement parts.

One part that looks very similar is the inverter board for the Predator 8750 - I haven't tried this yet, but I'm willing to bet it's probably the exact same part...

From Listing	In Generator
	View attachment 134622

Helpful Reviews

View attachment 134625
View attachment 134626View attachment 134627View attachment 134628

EXCELLENT discussion. I have an almost new XP9000IH and will probably just disconnect the existing propane solenoid and mount a ball valve assembly somewhere on the exterior of the genset to allow access, etc..
TBooneFisher, EE
Granbury, TX, 0TX1

 

[Symbioquine]

EXCELLENT discussion. I have an almost new XP9000IH and will probably just disconnect the existing propane solenoid and mount a ball valve assembly somewhere on the exterior of the genset to allow access, etc..
TBooneFisher, EE
Granbury, TX, 0TX1

Good to have you onboard. Please share anything you learn about these generators!

 

[turbov6]

Any update on this topic, I also own a XP9000IH. I sooke to a rep at Duromax on 12/07/2022 and he replied with:

We are supposed to be coming out with a transfer switch on this generator. Current ETA is projected at 3rd quarter 2023.

I’ll follow up to see if they have any updates on it.

 

[Symbioquine]

Not sure why I didn't get a notification about your post @turbov6

It's not full off-the-shelf auto ATS functionality, but on page 2 of this thread I described the pins on the ATS plug which cause my XP9000iH units to start/stop. Using that (assuming your unit is the same), it should be possible to DIY an auto start/stop solution of some kind. Not sure if that helps, but I think that's the best option at the moment. DuroMAX' website just lists manual transfer options and panel interlock kits - as far as I can tell nothing that integrates with the XP9000iH ATS plug.