Lots of Threads about AIO vs. Component Idle Consumption, but It's Not Clear Why

[forbin]

I've been perusing threads where people talk about high AIO idle consumption versus component systems, and the threads typically devolve into people comparing the idle consumption between various AIO systems and inverters. One thing that I can't seem to get from the discussions (and I'm sure this is due to my own ignorance) is why AIO units have higher idle consumption than component systems. That seems counterintuitive to me. Given that all the sub-components in an AIO are integrated and tuned to work together, all from the same vendor, and all in extremely close proximity within the same physical box, one would expect them to be more efficient and less costly to run than DIY systems built from separate components.

So, can someone please...

(a) Help me understand why this is so.
(b) Advise me on how to minimize idle consumption, since I have very little space for panels.

You're all awesome, thanks in advance!

 

[forbin]

And by the way, I did see the similar thread about this, where the first and best answer seems to be from user 'robby'...

Some Inverters especially the Low Frequency kind can be real power hogs going up to 100+ watts of power and some High Frequency ones are still power hungry using 90W. The reason is that the circuitry inside is always powered on and also powering multiple power conversion systems, like DC to AC for the batteries to be stepped up to line voltage, DC-DC for the charging of batteries from PV power and AC-DC for using the Grid to charge the batteries along with PV DC voltage to AC for direct solar powering. All of these systems need to be ready to go in case any one of them Sags or drops out the others can be used to keep the output AC voltage steady.

What isn't clear to me is why these factors do not also come into play with component systems. Doesn't an AIO just have all the same components in a smaller space? Doesn't a component system have to do all the same functions, except with separate pieces?

 

[Shimmy]

My expectation is that they are optimized for low cost rather than efficiency. An example could be a single controller managing multiple functions cannot reduce consumption for one non-operating subsystem.

 

[timselectric]

Idle consumption is usually only calculated on the inverter. Since the inverter is included in the AIO, the calculated consumption is of all components.
I'm thinking that if you could calculate the losses through each piece of a separate component system. The numbers might not be very far off.

 

[forbin]

Idle consumption is usually only calculated on the inverter. Since the inverter is included in the AIO, the calculated consumption is of all components.
I'm thinking that if you could calculate the losses through each piece of a separate component system. The numbers might not be very far off.

Exactly my thought. Which is why I am puzzled by Will's AIO page, which lists high idle consumption as a 'con' of AIO systems.

 

[timselectric]

I don't worry about idle consumption.
It's just the cost of living free from the utility company. It's more important to me, to get a unit that does what I need.

 

[forbin]

My expectation is that they are optimized for low cost rather than efficiency. An example could be a single controller managing multiple functions cannot reduce consumption for one non-operating subsystem.

That seems like a reasonable conjecture, but I'm wondering if the comment from @timselectric might be close to the truth.

 

[forbin]

I don't worry about idle consumption.
It's just the cost of living free from the utility company.

You would if you only had room for 3 panels. ;-)

 

[timselectric]

You would if you only had room for 3 panels. ;-)

Probably

 

[timselectric]

3 panels isn't enough to consider an AIO.
I don't think that they come that small.

 

[forbin]

3 panels isn't enough to consider an AIO.
I don't think that they come that small.

It's 3 panels for now. After I fell some trees in a future TBD, it will be 14 panels. Some do work with small arrays. Also, my solar shed is tight on wall space. Also, I want to simplify wiring. And I also want a split-phase unit like the MPP LV6048 that can do 240V without paralleling so I can run my well pump.

 

[timselectric]

It's 3 panels for now. After I fell some trees in a future TBD, it will be 14 panels. Some do work with small arrays. Also, my solar shed is tight on wall space. Also, I want to simplify wiring. And I also want a split-phase unit like the MPP LV6048 that can do 240V without paralleling so I can run my well pump.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[SupraSPL]

To test that theory, I have a cheap 60A MPPT that draws .4W during idle (Pwrmr) and a fancier one (iPandee 60A) that draws 1.6W during idle. My Renogy 12V 3000W HF inverter idles at 12W and the Renogy 12V 3000W LF version with auto transfer and grid charging idles at 20W. So in a nutshell, for smaller systems, separate components really will draw less standby power than AiO, whether HF or LF.

But if you double or triple the size of the total system mentioned above, I guess it's fair that overhead power will double or triple from 22W to 50W or 70W.

There is some good news though, when under a substantial load the inverter standby power get "rolled into" the DC to AC conversion losses and since most households have some power draw 24/7 from fridge, chargers, security systems, lights, modem etc that overhead power does not get to tax you twice. I'm not sure if that applies to AiO but I will test that as soon as I get my hands on one.

 

[Will Prowse]

Exactly my thought. Which is why I am puzzled by Will's AIO page, which lists high idle consumption as a 'con' of AIO systems.

Idle consumption of most AIO are typically high because they use cheap inverter boards from China. And cheap software. Case in point is LVX6048 idle consumption and compare it to a victron LF inverter idle consumption. Different software and transformer design.

Would be incredible if we could have an AIO that has victron level components and software.

 

[forbin]

There is some good news though, when under a substantial load the inverter standby power get "rolled into" the DC to AC conversion losses and since most households have some power draw 24/7 from fridge, chargers, security systems, lights, modem etc that overhead power does not get to tax you twice. I'm not sure if that applies to AiO but I will test that as soon as I get my hands on one.

That would be a significant find it it turns out to be true. I've been thinking of idle consumption as overhead, which adds to the overall consumption of the load. If that's not true, it changes the calculus of the system a bunch.

 

[forbin]

Idle consumption of most AIO are typically high because they use cheap inverter boards from China. And cheap software. Case in point is LVX6048 idle consumption and compare it to a victron LF inverter idle consumption. Different software and transformer design.

Would be incredible if we could have an AIO that has victron level components and software.

Thanks for hopping in, Will. That makes me wonder what the physical differences are between a cheap inverter board and a good one like Victron. At the end of the day, a PCB is an assembly of sub-components with chemical and metallurgical properties--resistors, capacitors, transformers, transistors, diodes, and whatnot. I guess its possible that the difference in idle consumption is a product of all the small differences in the sub-components.

 

[timselectric]

Thanks for hopping in, Will. That makes me wonder what the physical differences are between a cheap inverter board and a good one like Victron. At the end of the day, a PCB is an assembly of sub-components with chemical and metallurgical properties--resistors, capacitors, transformers, transistors, diodes, and whatnot. I guess its possible that the difference in idle consumption is a product of all the small differences in the sub-components.

Yes, that's exactly it.

 

[Shimmy]

There is some good news though, when under a substantial load the inverter standby power get "rolled into" the DC to AC conversion losses and since most households have some power draw 24/7 ...

Often times you can design a larger inverter to have significantly less percentage idle and low-power losses than a smaller inverter. There are also technologies that are only viable at larger sizes like the multi-level inverters.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Would be incredible if we could have an AIO that has victron level components and software.

Hopefully some reputable company will see that comment and bring a Victron quality AIO to market.

5kwh expandable (click on modular) to 25kwh with 3000w inverter (and optional 6000w inverter), hi/low temp protection, internal heaters please.
I was recently pleased to see the Chins AIO because I like the trend, but have doubts and questions about the quality, parasitic consumption, and warranty.

 

[solar_trees]

Would be incredible if we could have an AIO that has victron level components and software.

Any idea how likely it is that we see a product like this in the next 3 years?