diy solar

diy solar

Need Advice: Expanding My Solar System Due to EV Commute

I would highly recommend asking on r/solar, maybe tag the professionals that were blasting out NEM2/3 transition info, on how to correct this. I saw one of the NEM2 rush threads in April to summer time frame had advice on how to correct mistakes.

No offense to folks on this board but there are better informed solar professionals/California policy pros on r/solar than here regarding the intricacies
 
The stupid looking rails aren't so bad if you can fit another panel. Unmount panels and slide rails to preferred location.
There's definitely a benefit if he can add more panels, but most people won't
Might be a rather long cantelever.
Most mounting rails can cantilever more than the standard 24" rafter spacing, so the cantilever shouldn't be required.
I wouldn't care about panels hanging over both sides of a ridge when there is an entire face available for walking.
Agreed, it should be fine even in emergencies, but depending on how code is interpreted it might ot be.
Does Solar Edge have a limited export feature using CT?
That could let you sit at 3.8 kW all day long. Additional power would be collected if you had loads.
Not on the older inverters (2018 vintage), possibly pm on the newer ones. We'd need a model number or for the OP to research it.

Is there a correction possible with PG&E? I thought there was a process in place for that.
My concern is that the NEM3/newcrappyplan transition happened after his approval date. Any changes may force them to NEM3, despite the fact that he installed screwed up. I really hope there is a process to get it corrected without going to NEM3.
 
My concern is that the NEM3/newcrappyplan transition happened after his approval date. Any changes may force them to NEM3, despite the fact that he installed screwed up. I really hope there is a process to get it corrected without going to NEM3.
The dates things got filed are probably critical. IE before the transition period started (roughly January) is likely a different ball of wax than if filed after.

Small claims court limit in california is $10k. There could be $10k worth of liquidated damages in clipped exports over 20 years. IIRC there is some synergy between small claims court and CSLB (licensing board) complaint process. I wonder if solar installer association has a complaint process of its own.
 
I think he's all good as it is.
Only possible issue is if he exports more than 3.8kW and PG&E notices and pushes him to NEM 3 or makes him switch hardware to what application said.

So limited export would be an option to avoid that.
And overpaneling would supply house loads.

No offense to folks on this board but there are better informed solar professionals/California policy pros on r/solar than here regarding the intricacies

Except it was the professionals who apparently slipped on submitting the right paperwork, while we amateurs were paying attention to details of our own (and other's) systems.

Whether there could or should be compensation for not filing correct paperwork by a CEC deadline ...
Sounds like design was revised larger but same old size was on paperwork submitted.

There is no option to get bigger inverter on NEM 2.
But you can add a battery inverter if you want. And that would legally push exports much higher than 3.8kW (if export from battery is in fact allowed, not just using it to shift time of consumption.)

Of course, the whole reason to slip under NEM 2 deadline was to not need batteries.
 
Except it was the professionals who apparently slipped on submitting the right paperwork, while we amateurs were paying attention to details of our own (and other's) systems.
It was but the installer association guy who was constantly updating the subreddit knows WAY more about gaming the NEM2/3 than the best person on this forum. And probably has helpers feeding him info.
 
Thank you everyone for your suggestions and comments! I’m thrilled as a new guy here. I feel I fit in more in the DIY and attention to detail team but I only started the project on March to rush into NEM2 so I hired professionals.

I will answer a few questions as I have to go. Will cover others later.

Attached is our SE5000H-US inverter. It looks like only one string is used.

I love the sliding idea and I will definitely attempt it.

I had 5kw output in both July and August during noon so there is no limit in place.

My understanding is the 1kw expansion limit is calculated on the panel size or inverter size, whichever’s diff is smaller. The saving grace from this mistake is the panel size is only off by 360w, so there might be a way to convince PGE to let me stay in NEM2.

Of course it is much better to have it fixed if possible. That way I can expand to 6kw inverter and add much more panels.

I already emailed my sales guy / main contact of the installation company, he’s ignored me for a few days. I’m gonna put on more pressure. I intended to cooperate with them to have it solved. But I’m not afraid to fight if it comes to it. Also gonna ask /r/solar for help.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4291.jpeg
    IMG_4291.jpeg
    739.2 KB · Views: 4
I like the suggestion to slide the panels on the existing rails on the Southwest and Southeast-facing sections to add 3 more. There appears to be plenty of rail up there, maybe it was a rushed job, looks horrid but works out good in this case. You can add a total of 5 more if 2 are added to the Northwest roof too, albeit with lesser daily output for those.
Using the existing extra rails means you don't have to alter the conduit, and it keeps the parts list low. It might be necessary to pull another pair of conductors through the conduit if splitting the string becomes necessary.

Need to identify the model of the panels, optimizers, rails, panel-mount for rails, and rail mounting hardware for the optimizers.
Also need to identify if this is two or one string currently, and which panels are on what string if already 2, so the calculations can be done for adding more. With only 17 panels and the big chunk of Northwest facing modules, I'm going to guess it's all one string.
And, need to find out if you can get the inverter into optimizer pairing mode, or if it's locked out.
(Keep track of the serial numbers of the new optimizers into which position they are installed; you'll need that later for the App.)

As an additional benefit, you'll be inspecting the existing work done by the installation company and may decide, based on what you find, that you never want them near your home again. It happens...
Far as warranty goes, the equipment is unlikely to have issues, and even if something fails you might be able to pursue manufacturer warranty or for even less hassle just purchase a replacement (panel, optimizer, etc.) The inverter is the only expensive item. The main thing I'd be focused on for warranty is stuff caused by the installation itself - roof leaks, penetration problems, conduit, electric junctions, etc.
View attachment 168722
Amazingly detailed suggestions, thank you! Based on what you said, I'd better wait after this raining season to do the DIY, just to make sure they didn't poke a hole on the roof. My App only shows the production tab, I don't have access to layout. I assume that is needed, but the installation company refused to give me the access. Now I may have more leverage to ask for that access again.
 
I don't know how the 3.8kW crept in. I see you have a 5 kW-AC system, and if you are overpaneled as you should be PG&E has you down for 5kW-AC export.
it was the old design, they might have submitted that design before I signed the change order to 5kw on 03/29. However I checked the email, the submission receipt from PGE is on 03/31. If this receipt is automatically generated, then they are even more at fault.
 
Ouch? That's rough.

The giant paperwork error along with the stupid looking rails makes me think this isn't a top notch solar installer, but that's just my opinion.
It's better earth. They are not top notch, but they should be better than this. Also I don't know how we got through all the inspections and PTO with this...
 
Last edited:
Far as warranty goes, the equipment is unlikely to have issues, and even if something fails you might be able to pursue manufacturer warranty or for even less hassle just purchase a replacement (panel, optimizer, etc.)

Good info on the details regarding configuration of optimizers.

But I'd keep my fingers crossed regarding not having equipment failures. There seem to have been a considerable number of Solar Edge failures reported. It may vary with climate, also with models.

 
it was the old design, they might have submitted that design before I signed the change order to 5kw on 03/29. However I checked the email, the submission receipt from PGE is on 03/31. If this receipt is automatically generated, then they are even more at fault.
Regarding not top-notch in the Bay Area, my turnkey installer did a pretty awful job, including not clamping the panels on correctly, not using the right clamps, leaving off some clamps, and not torqueing the wire connections. With the amount of extra rail on your installation, yours looks worse than mine... I actually bought a drone to inspect their work when I found out after I signed the contract how shitty they had gotten. Taking an in-person look from roof level is also good.

Sorry I wrote that before I noticed your update in the middle about why you're worried about 3.8kW (NEM application done incorrectly)

In terms of getting more production for EV, one way is to max out your NEM2. I would not recommend transitioning to NEM3 until the NEM2 compensation rate gets terrible due to market forces (it has a good chance to happen if there's too much solar pushed to the grid, and if batteries get cheap enough). I think it is unlikely for NEM3 to be a good idea if you need the seasonal kWh bank to power winter needs (heavily the case for me, and I'm pretty sure my winter heating is slightly less than yours given your location).

Another thing I'm keeping an eye on for boosting generation is for batteries to get cheap enough so that I can move all my summer export to forced export during superpeak hours. These summer superpeak rates are something like 2x higher than the off-peak rates during the winter, so you effectively get +50%-+100% the credit for the same amount of energy.
 
Regarding not top-notch in the Bay Area, my turnkey installer did a pretty awful job, including not clamping the panels on correctly, not using the right clamps, leaving off some clamps, and not torqueing the wire connections. With the amount of extra rail on your installation, yours looks worse than mine... I actually bought a drone to inspect their work when I found out after I signed the contract how shitty they had gotten. Taking an in-person look from roof level is also good.

Sorry I wrote that before I noticed your update in the middle about why you're worried about 3.8kW (NEM application done incorrectly)

In terms of getting more production for EV, one way is to max out your NEM2. I would not recommend transitioning to NEM3 until the NEM2 compensation rate gets terrible due to market forces (it has a good chance to happen if there's too much solar pushed to the grid, and if batteries get cheap enough). I think it is unlikely for NEM3 to be a good idea if you need the seasonal kWh bank to power winter needs (heavily the case for me, and I'm pretty sure my winter heating is slightly less than yours given your location).

Another thing I'm keeping an eye on for boosting generation is for batteries to get cheap enough so that I can move all my summer export to forced export during superpeak hours. These summer superpeak rates are something like 2x higher than the off-peak rates during the winter, so you effectively get +50%-+100% the credit for the same amount of energy.
They cut off my EV charging line during their installation. During the fix, they used an improper size breaker (40A vs 30A), and still haven't replaced it. When asked, the guy who installed didn't seems know this can be dangerous. Now when think about it, it does sound pretty terrible.

Thanks for other suggestions! I definitely don't want to be on NEM3. That's the whole point of our rushed application and installation.
 
It was only the application that had to be rushed. Actually just started/submitted. Some details could be hashed out after the due date.

Apply in haste, install at leisure (3 years to do it.)

By the time mine has PTO, I expect it to be a different inverter model (due to old one being discontinued. New one isn't on CEC list yet, not even all technical details published.) Possibly, wattage of one system isn't nailed down yet, because PG&E requested a current version form be filled out. If it can grow from 7.7kW to 11.4kW, that will be useful because new model is a hybrid with optional battery.
 
They cut off my EV charging line during their installation. During the fix, they used an improper size breaker (40A vs 30A), and still haven't replaced it. When asked, the guy who installed didn't seems know this can be dangerous. Now when think about it, it does sound pretty terrible.
There's multiple reasons solar installers do bad things. It's a throughput game, they don't have good checklists, hacking stuff together can work OK especially with microinverters/optimizers, C-46 (solar) knows less about general electrical work than C-10 (electrical), even if they claim to be experienced electricians (that's what the guy that came to my place said) they can still suck. He was definitely really fast at finishing :laugh:

Re: no checklist. I had my installer over to fix missing clamps and fix improperly connected solar module (some PV modules were not sending power, some microinverters were not connected to the trunk). They managed to get everything wired up, but they didn't put all the clamps back on. Fortunately I caught that before they drove off. Otherwise I would have had a net loss in clamping quality.

It's sort of bad. EV has very prescriptive NEC rules on how to size it, and things still literally burn up or get thermal limited in hot garages. Solar has a pretty large enforced safety margin too on breaker and wire sizes. If you regularly max out your solar panel output and inverter output then this margin is important (as is proper installation of the wire since the margin presumes that). Since I don't get max output with the way my solar is laid out (max is like 50% of max ampacity, which is 25% of the heat), the undertorqued solar breakers wasn't as bad as it could have been. I haven't yet opened their junction boxes on the roof to check the quality of the polaris connector terminations.

Regarding the undersized EV breaker, at least the breaker is smaller than the wiring so the breaker will trip before wiring is at risk.

Problem comes in details though. EVSE circuit really needs to be torqued/otherwise installed to spec because they are literally the heaviest load in a house (unless you have resistive baseboard heaters I guess). If 30A is a smaller breaker frame size than 40A and it can no longer accept the wire size for your EV circuit, maybe they did not notice and managed to squish it in, or did some trimming of the wire to make it fit (both are not cool).
 
There's multiple reasons solar installers do bad things. It's a throughput game, they don't have good checklists, hacking stuff together can work OK especially with microinverters/optimizers, C-46 (solar) knows less about general electrical work than C-10 (electrical), even if they claim to be experienced electricians (that's what the guy that came to my place said) they can still suck. He was definitely really fast at finishing :laugh:

Re: no checklist. I had my installer over to fix missing clamps and fix improperly connected solar module (some PV modules were not sending power, some microinverters were not connected to the trunk). They managed to get everything wired up, but they didn't put all the clamps back on. Fortunately I caught that before they drove off. Otherwise I would have had a net loss in clamping quality.

It's sort of bad. EV has very prescriptive NEC rules on how to size it, and things still literally burn up or get thermal limited in hot garages. Solar has a pretty large enforced safety margin too on breaker and wire sizes. If you regularly max out your solar panel output and inverter output then this margin is important (as is proper installation of the wire since the margin presumes that). Since I don't get max output with the way my solar is laid out (max is like 50% of max ampacity, which is 25% of the heat), the undertorqued solar breakers wasn't as bad as it could have been. I haven't yet opened their junction boxes on the roof to check the quality of the polaris connector terminations.

Regarding the undersized EV breaker, at least the breaker is smaller than the wiring so the breaker will trip before wiring is at risk.

Problem comes in details though. EVSE circuit really needs to be torqued/otherwise installed to spec because they are literally the heaviest load in a house (unless you have resistive baseboard heaters I guess). If 30A is a smaller breaker frame size than 40A and it can no longer accept the wire size for your EV circuit, maybe they did not notice and managed to squish it in, or did some trimming of the wire to make it fit (both are not cool).
They used a 30A/40A double breaker on that slot that only has 30A wires.
 
I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. I have a 3.6kW system that was fine for a while, but since PG&E changed my rate plan and increased rates I am now paying as much for electricity as I did before I installed my system 8 years ago.. I have a 14 panel system with P300 SolarEdge optimizers. I was going to add four more panels. I am naively hoping to just add them to my main string of panels (just wire them in series between two panels), and reset my inverter to recognize them per this video,
. Is this a bad idea to try to do DIY? Did you have a chance to add more panels yet?
 
I think it would be about that simple.

Need to consider whether adding PV panels would result in you getting pushed off NEM 1.0 or 2.0 onto NEM 3.0. Or is that only based on inverter rating? We were allowed up to 10% more or 1kW more, whichever is greater.

What is the wattage rating of your inverter? What peak wattage and Wh/day do you get now?
I think SolarEdge will support quite a few more panels in series, question will be how many watts it can process.

Are all existing panels and the new ones going too be same orientation?
 
Check SolarEdge string limits for that inverter/optimizer combo. If it allows that number of inverters then it should be fine. You can double check the size of the wire. As well you need to check the inverter capacity to see when it clips production and then decide whether the clipping affects the viability of the project.

It may be hard (impossible) to get exactly matching solar panels. So you have to accept the ugliness.

You may be able to do this legally under NEM2 expansion limits. It’s something like 10% or 1kW (please do your own research).
 
Back
Top