diy solar

diy solar

New EG4’s with old Outback system?

roogadae

New Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2023
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6
Location
Arizona
image.jpgTrying to pair this older 3.5 kW inverter (~10 years old) with three EG4 batteries. Outback rep said it should work fine; website says it’s not compatible with lithium. A few questions for the pros:

1. Is this system compatible with EG4s? If so, are there any drawbacks.
2. The batteries are slow to charge through the inverter when running a 12 kW generator. Any way to fix this besides a new inverter?
3. What settings do I adjust on the Mate3? Will said charge to 100% and discharge to 0%. I’m flexible, just need to know what to set absorb float and re-float and bulk and rebulk to.
4. Anything else this rookie should know? :)

Thanks all,
-R
 
I would be amazed if you could not set custom set points for lithium battery chemistry on this Outback gear as it has a very wide voltage acceptance range.
If you do not get an answer here there is an Outback forum where you should be able to get some help.
 
The EG4's should work just fine BUT only in a Manual Settings mode in the EG4 and in the Outback components, meaning, you cannot connect the EG4's by communication cable, to communicate any settings or data with the Outback Inverter nor the Outback FlexMax charge controller, nor is communication between components really needed. I run my components and 2 batteries without shared communication and everything runs just fine. Communication can be helpful IF the components are built for it to be shared properly. The Outback components are not built to be shared with EG4's and the opposite. There are no real drawbacks using the EG4's with the Outback components. Data enthusiasts like the more modern components to share settings and data but it can also be overwhelming to try to tweak performance. It depends on your OCD or how your brain works or is stimulated if you desire shared data and desire for complexity and troubleshooting of communication and of your budget, as newer components for shared data will cost you and you will lose value on the perfectly fine and quality Outback components.

You should read the user manual for the Inverter/Charger for instructions on how to set up the generator Charging Voltage High and Low Set Points. Same with the FlexMax Charge Controller. I have used the FlexMax 80 with Lithium Batteries and it works fine, nothing special as a manual charge controller. You will have to learn how to set the generator charger set points to a controlled C Rate or Charge Rate and to set the voltages to play nice with your EG4 BMS over and under voltage set points.

Charging slowly is better than charging really fast, as LiFePO4 suffers and can degrade with heat and charging always creates heat. Fast charging creates more heat than slower charging. So depending on the C Rate (Charge / Discharge Rates) recommendations of your EG4's in the EG4 user manual, that should help.

The EG4 user manual should give you Charge Voltage Set Points. The battery manufacturers all provide this information, not the component manufacturers. However, these "recommendations" are just that and for the impatient general public that want set it and forget it settings for fast performance but which causes longer term battery life to suffer. However, the LiFePO4 technology is still to new for anyone to know 100% what the best charge voltage settings are.

If you search and read the forums, LiFePO4 batteries CAN cycle from 100%-0% but it is NOT RECOMMENDED to be a normal charge and discharge cycle, unless long term battery life is not a consideration. Charge to discharge settings of 90%-10% is discussed as a better target for daily use. However, cycling between 90-10% or any percentages is often difficult to manage, unless one turns off the solar panels or whatever charging source (generator, turbine) manually every day. As most people have extra solar panel watts over their battery capacity and so either rarely draw down the batteries much and so charge to nearly 100% every day because they can't use all the power created by the solar panels on a sunny day. My batteries rarely go below 80% SOC (State of Charge) each day because I simply do not run enough appliances to use all the power created by my solar panels ON A SUNNY DAY. So I set my FlexMax Solar Charge Controller (SCC) Bulk, Absorption and Float settings lower to avoid maximum charged voltages, often as suggested by Battery Manufacturers in their specs or user manuals, eg: Charged or Bulk / Absorption Voltage Set point to be 3.65V per cell (29.2-29.6 for 24V system or 58.4+ Volts for 48V battery bank). These charge fast, but create heat and LiFePO4 batteries don't like heat nor to be at a 100% State of Charge (SOC) for long periods of time.

Do a forum search for LiFePO4 Charge settings, as there are MANY MANY MANY threads on this and quite a few opinions on the best settings, for best performance or best battery life. These Outback components were built before LiFePO4 technology, so their user manuals do not have LiFePO4 settings info. But the components don't really care where the electrons come from, such as Lead Acid, AGM vs LiFePO4 batteries or even liquid fuel generators. The Settings for LiFePO4 are to safeguard the battery for over or under charging and for general use and long term battery life. LiFePO4 is also relatively new so no one really knows 100% what THE BEST charge and discharge settings are, as every setting has compromises. The settings must also be compatible with settings in the EG4 BMS, which your EG4 user manual should discuss, or contact the EG4 seller for how to set up the BMS and the Outback voltage charge and discharge settings for either or best / fast performance or long term battery life or a compromise of the 2.

You can also search YouTube for lots of videos, such as Off Grid Garage, or Will Prowse videos for basics and info on Charger Voltage settings for your LiFePO4 battery types.
 
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The EG4's should work just fine BUT only in a Manual Settings mode in the EG4 and in the Outback components, meaning, you cannot connect the EG4's by communication cable, to communicate any settings or data with the Outback Inverter nor the Outback FlexMax charge controller, nor is communication between components really needed. I run my components and 2 batteries without shared communication and everything runs just fine. Communication can be helpful IF the components are built for it to be shared properly. The Outback components are not built to be shared with EG4's and the opposite. There are no real drawbacks using the EG4's with the Outback components. Data enthusiasts like the more modern components to share settings and data but it can also be overwhelming to try to tweak performance. It depends on your OCD or how your brain works or is stimulated if you desire shared data and desire for complexity and troubleshooting of communication and of your budget, as newer components for shared data will cost you and you will lose value on the perfectly fine and quality Outback components.

You should read the user manual for the Inverter/Charger for instructions on how to set up the generator Charging Voltage High and Low Set Points. Same with the FlexMax Charge Controller. I have used the FlexMax 80 with Lithium Batteries and it works fine, nothing special as a manual charge controller. You will have to learn how to set the generator charger set points to a controlled C Rate or Charge Rate and to set the voltages to play nice with your EG4 BMS over and under voltage set points.

Charging slowly is better than charging really fast, as LiFePO4 suffers and can degrade with heat and charging always creates heat. Fast charging creates more heat than slower charging. So depending on the C Rate (Charge / Discharge Rates) recommendations of your EG4's in the EG4 user manual, that should help.

The EG4 user manual should give you Charge Voltage Set Points. The battery manufacturers all provide this information, not the component manufacturers. However, these "recommendations" are just that and for the impatient general public that want set it and forget it settings for fast performance but which causes longer term battery life to suffer. However, the LiFePO4 technology is still to new for anyone to know 100% what the best charge voltage settings are.

If you search and read the forums, LiFePO4 batteries CAN cycle from 100%-0% but it is NOT RECOMMENDED to be a normal charge and discharge cycle, unless long term battery life is not a consideration. Charge to discharge settings of 90%-10% is discussed as a better target for daily use. However, cycling between 90-10% or any percentages is often difficult to manage, unless one turns off the solar panels or whatever charging source (generator, turbine) manually every day. As most people have extra solar panel watts over their battery capacity and so either rarely draw down the batteries much and so charge to nearly 100% every day because they can't use all the power created by the solar panels on a sunny day. My batteries rarely go below 80% SOC (State of Charge) each day because I simply do not run enough appliances to use all the power created by my solar panels ON A SUNNY DAY. So I set my FlexMax Solar Charge Controller (SCC) Bulk, Absorption and Float settings lower to avoid maximum charged voltages, often as suggested by Battery Manufacturers in their specs or user manuals, eg: Charged or Bulk / Absorption Voltage Set point to be 3.65V per cell (29.2-29.6 for 24V system or 58.4+ Volts for 48V battery bank). These charge fast, but create heat and LiFePO4 batteries don't like heat nor to be at a 100% State of Charge (SOC) for long periods of time.

Do a forum search for LiFePO4 Charge settings, as there are MANY MANY MANY threads on this and quite a few opinions on the best settings, for best performance or best battery life. These Outback components were built before LiFePO4 technology, so their user manuals do not have LiFePO4 settings info. But the components don't really care where the electrons come from, such as Lead Acid, AGM vs LiFePO4 batteries or even liquid fuel generators. The Settings for LiFePO4 are to safeguard the battery for over or under charging and for general use and long term battery life. LiFePO4 is also relatively new so no one really knows 100% what THE BEST charge and discharge settings are, as every setting has compromises. The settings must also be compatible with settings in the EG4 BMS, which your EG4 user manual should discuss, or contact the EG4 seller for how to set up the BMS and the Outback voltage charge and discharge settings for either or best / fast performance or long term battery life or a compromise of the 2.

You can also search YouTube for lots of videos, such as Off Grid Garage, or Will Prowse videos for basics and info on Charger Voltage settings for your LiFePO4 battery types.
Thanks so much for all the help. I will continue to research and play with settings until I figure things out. Your info is super helpful.
 
I, too, have the Outback system w 4000 watts of panels and 400 ah of old SLAs. I wanna add or merge to my system with EG4 batts but I know it won't work in harmony. The Outback only has a 20 amp charger and tho it can be adjusted for SLA or LiFePo4, it cannot do both at the same time. I am no electrician by any stretch but logic suggests simply building a second entire system and just switch back and forth to share the duties. Input, please?
 
@coastalhermit
You should also have a separate charge controller (like the FlexMax 60 pictured in the first post).
Can you post a picture of your system?

I have a system that is probably similar to yours, and I just picked up my EG4 PowerPro batteries and will be installing them in the next few days.

You can find information on the settings needed in the manual (here's a link to download it from Signature Solar -> https://eg4electronics.com/backend/.../EG4-14.3kWh-PowerPro-WallMount-AW-Manual.pdf ).

I'll post my settings and any issues I run into once I have them up and running.
 
I picked up a trio of these from an upgrade I did for a customer. Came with network gear, contactors, control panels etc… now I just gotta get it all communicating again.
 
@coastalhermit
My EG4 PowerPro batteries are installed and have been working flawlessly for a couple of weeks now.
I set them up as a master/slave pair (one BMS managing both batteries) because my inverter and electrical box are off to one side and tthe factory cables weren't quite long enough to reach.

I've added pictures of the key settings I'm working with for the inverter and both charge controllers.
Note that I'm grid tied and have a net metering authorization from the utility to sell back, so one of the other 'modes' might be appropriate for you, but the settings should be a good starting point.

I also have a Mate3 and FNDC. I can share those settings if they would be helpful.

Tony
 

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