New Lux Power LXP-LB-US 12k / GSL-H-12KLV-US with 200A AC Passthrough Current (US Market)

[elusivesd]

I've been thinking about options if I decided to go with this converter for a while and I'm trying to avoid an independent disconnect...I.e. pulling my panel apart putting in switched etc...I have a ton of room in my existing main panel which is 200 am. Why couldn't I add a 2 Pole Circuit breaker to the panel for the output to the inverter and then have a second breaker at 50 amp because that's Max output of the Inverter going into the panel the CT clamps where they need to be between the meter and the existing panel and the inverter not work As 1A grid supplement comment 2AA backup in case of a power failure during the during the day at least until I can get a battery and 3 still do 0 export??? I'm sure I'm missing something just curious and thinking out loud looking for advice...

Fyi this breaker fits my cabinet style and I have the room...

https://www.amazon.com/Homeline-Circuit-Breaker-HOM2150BB-Approved/dp/B008HK7PE4

I have read your post multiple times and I’m having a difficult time understanding what you are trying to do. A drawing would really help. It sounds like you want to run 2 breakers from the panel to the inverter - one to the input of the inverter, and one to the output? Is this correct?

The main issue with any solution is ensuring the “output” (EPS) is never connected to the grid. This is not only a code violation, but a dangerous safety issue. An interlock between the breakers is possibly one way to do this - the “output” breaker can only be enabled if the main/grid breaker AND the inverter input breaker are shut off. However, I do not know if such a 3-way interlock exists off the shelf…

 

[fromport]

I have read your post multiple times and I’m having a difficult time understanding what you are trying to do. A drawing would really help. It sounds like you want to run 2 breakers from the panel to the inverter - one to the input of the inverter, and one to the output? Is this correct?

I interpreted that the same way, hence my request for a drawing ;-)

 

[Archcpj]

I have read your post multiple times and I’m having a difficult time understanding what you are trying to do. A drawing would really help. It sounds like you want to run 2 breakers from the panel to the inverter - one to the input of the inverter, and one to the output? Is this correct?

The main issue with any solution is ensuring the “output” (EPS) is never connected to the grid. This is not only a code violation, but a dangerous safety issue. An interlock between the breakers is possibly one way to do this - the “output” breaker can only be enabled if the main/grid breaker AND the inverter input breaker are shut off. However, I do not know if such a 3-way interlock exists off the shelf…

Can you make a drawing of what you would like to do ?

Im a lefty and write horribly so I apologize for the chicken scratch

 

[fromport]

Im a lefty and write horribly so I apologize for the chicken scratch

I will keep it short: will not work.
Do you think plugging the end of an extension cord in the beginning works ?
Same applies to your drawing: you can not have input & output connected to the same and expect something to "work"

 

[adamantium]

Im a lefty and write horribly so I apologize for the chicken scratch

Rather than explaining how you want to do it, please explain what you are trying to achieve. Provide all of the information we need to help you answer your questions.

What you have asked:
1. How to install the inverter with a bypass to address inverter failure,
2. How to make the inverter supplement the grid to lower bills and to provide backup power with zero export.

What we know:
1. You have a 200A service,
2. You have a Square D Homeline load center,
3. You don't want to mess with your load center, you just want to add a breaker to it to make it work,
4. You want the least expensive option.

Here are some questions:
1. Do you still need the inverter bypass?
2. Does your meter panel have a disconnect breaker in it?
3. Can you provide the model number of your Homeline load center?
a. Do you know how many amps your load center is rated for?
b. Does your load center have a main breaker in it at the top?
c. If your load center has a main breaker in it, what size is it?
4. Do you know how many amps or watts you use on average and peak?
5. Do you know where and how you are going to install the inverter relative to your load center?
6. How are you going to connect the PV power source(s)?
a. Are you going to connect PV panels directly to the inverter?
b. Are you going to connect existing PV grid-tie inverters to the output of the inverter?
c. Are you going to connect existing PV grid-tie inverters to the input of the inverter?

Here are some answers:
1. You can only connect the grid to the inverter's AC input.
2. You can never connect the grid to the inverter's AC output.
3. You can never connect the inverter AC input and AC output to the same panel.
4. The purpose of a large pass-through is to allow you to put the inverter between your meter panel and your main load center. This means that you do not need a breaker for the inverter. You simply connect the meter output to the inverter input and the inverter output to the existing load center. The meter is currently connected directly to the load center or to the load center's main breaker if it has one. You just reuse those wires.
5. Typically your meter has a breaker and your load center does not have a main breaker. The wires come from the meter and connect directly to the lugs in the load center. If your meter does not have a breaker, then you must have a main breaker in your load center. If this is the case, you MUST add a breaker to your meter panel if it allows one to be added, or you must add a new panel in front of the inverter with a main breaker in it so that you can disconnect your house from the grid. This is NOT optional if your meter panel does not currently have a breaker in it. If your service is 200A and you want to be able to use 200A, the breaker and panel must be rated for 200A. If you don't use 200A, then you can downsize everything to what you really use at and from that point.

Now with those answers you should be able to see how it all works. You connect your meter to your inverter, then your inverter to your load center. If you are connecting your PV panels directly to the inverter, the PV power will supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down with or without batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house and charge your batteries.

If you have existing grid-tied inverters on your house and connect them to the output of your inverter, then they will also supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down and you have batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house. However, the PV power will not charge your batteries as far as I understand the inverter. You will have to read up on that.

If you connect existing grid-tied PV inverters to the input of the inverter, then they will also supplement the grid and reduce your power bill. However you will not have zero export, and if the grid fails, the grid-tied PV inverters will turn off and they will not provide power to your house or to the inverter and will not charge your batteries.

None of what I have explained here addresses the inverter bypass in the event of inverter failure. The diagrams I provided previously describe that. If those are unsatisfactory, then there is another option, but it requires that your load center have a main breaker and you must be able to add an interlock kit to it at the top of the panel where the main breaker is. This solution eliminates one panel and its breakers but still requires a double-pole double-throw switch and one breaker and back-feed retaining brace. It will not support monitoring or charging the batteries or PV inputs when in grid-only mode, so that is why I did not provide that solution the first time. The solution I have already provided does. Given that you want 200A, you are going to have to pay a bunch for everything to be 200A capable, and I don't get the impression that you have the knowledge to pull it off without hurting or killing yourself.

If you have more questions, that is what the forum is for, but you need to provide all of the information necessary for us to provide a complete answer.

 

[Not Aerosmith]

Now with those answers you should be able to see how it all works. You connect your meter to your inverter, then your inverter to your load center. If you are connecting your PV panels directly to the inverter, the PV power will supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down with or without batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house and charge your batteries.

If you have existing grid-tied inverters on your house and connect them to the output of your inverter, then they will also supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down and you have batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house. However, the PV power will not charge your batteries as far as I understand the inverter. You will have to read up on that.

The manual states that the PV power will charge the batteries from Page 18, AC Coupling Installation Connection:

 

[summit]

I will keep it short: will not work.
Do you think plugging the end of an extension cord in the beginning works ?
Same applies to your drawing: you can not have input & output connected to the same and expect something to "work"

are you thinking the CT alone can prevent back flow to the utility grid ? if so, not a fail safe configuration

 

[fromport]

are you thinking the CT alone can prevent back flow to the utility grid ? if so, not a fail safe configuration

It should. That is what is made for. IRL you actually always have a little draw from the grid.
If the grid "goes away" that might might be because of a short circuit in your supply line.
If you have the output of your inverter connected to the grid, you would be powering the grid.
That is the whole reason they have relays in the inverter to disconnect the house from the grid.

 

[summit]

It should. That is what is made for. IRL you actually always have a little draw from the grid.
If the grid "goes away" that might might be because of a short circuit in your supply line.
If you have the output of your inverter connected to the grid, you would be powering the grid.
That is the whole reason they have relays in the inverter to disconnect the house from the grid.

yes i got that, but it seems from the drawing&verbiage that Archcpj is trying to configure the CT to act as a "transfer switch", to never export even during outage. It may work but not fail-proof

 

[fromport]

yes i got that, but it seems from the drawing&verbiage that Archcpj is trying to configure the CT to act as a "transfer switch", to never export even during outage. It may work but not fail-proof

During outage the relay is open, the inverter is at that point not connected to the grid so it can not export.
I am using this picture I found in a sol-ark thread but the concept is the same for this hybrid inverter:

**DISCLAIMER** MADE BY A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM, NOT AN OFFICIAL SA PRODUCT.
Doesn't make it less true of course

 

[summit]

we're in agreement here fromport. I may have misinterpreted Archcpj drawing, but I thought the drawing does not show the built-in transfer switch in series to disconnect from back feed.

 

[Archcpj]

If you are not on the grid or during a power outage, you are right and the inverter current is limited to 50A.

If you are on-grid, the 50A breaker will limit the 200A pass-through to 50A.

Then why not a 50 amp breaker going into the inverter

Rather than explaining how you want to do it, please explain what you are trying to achieve. Provide all of the information we need to help you answer your questions.

What you have asked:
1. How to install the inverter with a bypass to address inverter failure,
2. How to make the inverter supplement the grid to lower bills and to provide backup power with zero export.

What we know:
1. You have a 200A service,
2. You have a Square D Homeline load center,
3. You don't want to mess with your load center, you just want to add a breaker to it to make it work,
4. You want the least expensive option.

Here are some questions:
1. Do you still need the inverter bypass?
2. Does your meter panel have a disconnect breaker in it?
3. Can you provide the model number of your Homeline load center?
a. Do you know how many amps your load center is rated for?
b. Does your load center have a main breaker in it at the top?
c. If your load center has a main breaker in it, what size is it?
4. Do you know how many amps or watts you use on average and peak?
5. Do you know where and how you are going to install the inverter relative to your load center?
6. How are you going to connect the PV power source(s)?
a. Are you going to connect PV panels directly to the inverter?
b. Are you going to connect existing PV grid-tie inverters to the output of the inverter?
c. Are you going to connect existing PV grid-tie inverters to the input of the inverter?

Here are some answers:
1. You can only connect the grid to the inverter's AC input.
2. You can never connect the grid to the inverter's AC output.
3. You can never connect the inverter AC input and AC output to the same panel.
4. The purpose of a large pass-through is to allow you to put the inverter between your meter panel and your main load center. This means that you do not need a breaker for the inverter. You simply connect the meter output to the inverter input and the inverter output to the existing load center. The meter is currently connected directly to the load center or to the load center's main breaker if it has one. You just reuse those wires.
5. Typically your meter has a breaker and your load center does not have a main breaker. The wires come from the meter and connect directly to the lugs in the load center. If your meter does not have a breaker, then you must have a main breaker in your load center. If this is the case, you MUST add a breaker to your meter panel if it allows one to be added, or you must add a new panel in front of the inverter with a main breaker in it so that you can disconnect your house from the grid. This is NOT optional if your meter panel does not currently have a breaker in it. If your service is 200A and you want to be able to use 200A, the breaker and panel must be rated for 200A. If you don't use 200A, then you can downsize everything to what you really use at and from that point.

Now with those answers you should be able to see how it all works. You connect your meter to your inverter, then your inverter to your load center. If you are connecting your PV panels directly to the inverter, the PV power will supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down with or without batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house and charge your batteries.

If you have existing grid-tied inverters on your house and connect them to the output of your inverter, then they will also supplement the grid and reduce your power bill and you can have zero export. If the grid goes down and you have batteries, the inverter will continue to run and your PV power will continue to provide power to your house. However, the PV power will not charge your batteries as far as I understand the inverter. You will have to read up on that.

If you connect existing grid-tied PV inverters to the input of the inverter, then they will also supplement the grid and reduce your power bill. However you will not have zero export, and if the grid fails, the grid-tied PV inverters will turn off and they will not provide power to your house or to the inverter and will not charge your batteries.

None of what I have explained here addresses the inverter bypass in the event of inverter failure. The diagrams I provided previously describe that. If those are unsatisfactory, then there is another option, but it requires that your load center have a main breaker and you must be able to add an interlock kit to it at the top of the panel where the main breaker is. This solution eliminates one panel and its breakers but still requires a double-pole double-throw switch and one breaker and back-feed retaining brace. It will not support monitoring or charging the batteries or PV inputs when in grid-only mode, so that is why I did not provide that solution the first time. The solution I have already provided does. Given that you want 200A, you are going to have to pay a bunch for everything to be 200A capable, and I don't get the impression that you have the knowledge to pull it off without hurting or killing yourself.

If you have more questions, that is what the forum is for, but you need to provide all of the information necessary for us to provide a complete answer.

 

[fromport]

Then why not a 50 amp breaker going into the inverter

You can hook this unit up in many ways:
1)
as intended by manufacturer:
hookup to grid ----------[200amp breaker]----[inverter]-----------[main panel]

2)
you can use it like this
hookup to grid ---------[50amp breaker]----[inverter]----------[CRITICAL LOAD PANEL MAX 50 amps]

But i thought you started by saying you wanted to power your current main panel

 

[Quattrohead]

Then why not a 50 amp breaker going into the inverter

Because the inverter is capable of passing 200A from the grid to the load. A 50A breaker will limit this to 50A, if that is all the load you expect then that is OK.

Look, you can either bodge around as an experiment/live on the edge.
Or you can do it right and keep the WAF intact.

 

[Archcpj]

My meter and load center both have separate 200amp breakers...

Im not sure if I need the bypass my meter does have a disconnect so that is an option simply shut off the meter breaker...

I use under 6kw 85 to 90 percent of the time I do peak to 8KWish occasionally if alot of loads are 9n at once mainly 4 home freezers and a marathon (rheem) hot water heater happen to all be running at once which is rare but it's there...

The location of the solar equipment will be about 3 to 4 feet to the right of the existing load center on a cinder block wall see pics

Im going to of course have a pv disconnect box in between the panels and inverter for safety and once I finalize my needed (and afforded) amount of panels Ill determine how many strings Ill set up and each string will have a disconnect in the solar yard...

This is a new system Im starting from scratch so Om being very cautious and deliberate and sucking in as much information as I can...

THANKS GUYS

 

[fromport]

I use under 6kw 85 to 90 percent of the time I do peak to 8KWish occasionally

What about your peak usage?
I have a new freezer that is very energy efficient, only 0.55 kWh a day but has 1000 watts peaks when it switches on. The inverter has to provide those peaks as well. 4 freezers would be 4000 watts . On top of 8k you are already maxing out the 12k of the inverter

 

[Quattrohead]

What about your peak usage?
I have a new freezer that is very energy efficient, only 0.55 kWh a day but has 1000 watts peaks when it switches on. The inverter has to provide those peaks as well. 4 freezers would be 4000 watts . On top of 8k you are already maxing out the 12k of the inverter

Chance of this actually happening ? More chance of winning a lottery.
And the surge load of the inverter should cover that instance if it ever happened.

 

[Hrschk]

What about your peak usage?
I have a new freezer that is very energy efficient, only 0.55 kWh a day but has 1000 watts peaks when it switches on. The inverter has to provide those peaks as well. 4 freezers would be 4000 watts . On top of 8k you are already maxing out the 12k of the inverter

But, this inverter handles surges for several minutes at a time, so wouldn't that handle the startup for the freezers?
14kw for 10 minutes, 16kw for 5 min

 

[fromport]

Chance of this actually happening ? More chance of winning a lottery.
And the surge load of the inverter should cover that instance if it ever happened.

What if he has the inverter off line for some reason and grid disappears. he switches on the inverter thinking it will power the house and all loads have inrush current at the same time.
Yeah: probability from happening: very small.
And any technical person would shut off some breakers and gradually turn those back on after the inverter has started to spread the peak load.
But is everyone that technically inclined ? And he said he was learning, so I wanted to give some extra information that he might have to consider.

But, this inverter handles surges for several minutes at a time, so wouldn't that handle the startup for the freezers?
14kw for 10 minutes, 16kw for 5 min

Yep, probably will. 16kW at 51 volts = 314 amps. so he would need at least 25+kWh of battery storage to stay under 1C discharge.

So many factors ....

 

[Hrschk]

And any technical person would shut off some breakers and gradually turn those back on after the inverter has started to spread the peak load.
But is everyone that technically inclined ? And he said he was learning, so I wanted to give some extra information that he might have to consider.

I was super surprised at my installer on Friday. He was getting ready to turn on the inverter and every single breaker was on, including my AC, Central Heat, Water Heater, Fridge, Freezer, etc. I started shutting off the big 240v appliance breakers and he actually told me that wasn't necessary. I told him I just never do an initial turn on when I know that the first thing it's going to do is to power up all of the on demand motors/loads in the house. Blew me away he is a professional and was actually arguing with me about it.