diy solar

diy solar

Off Grid without Off / Hybrid Inverters

gr3gfx

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Joined
Mar 8, 2024
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Poland
Hi
I want to achieve the best production in winter or on cloudy days, so I decided to divide the installation into several parallel strings of panels and not use hybrid inverters due to their idle power consumption, so my idea is to use a Victron 250/100 MPPT charger controller with a Green Cell 5000W DC to AC power inverter and some LFP 48V battery pack.

I've been reading about this for a few weeks now and I still have some doubts and can't find the right answer to the following questions:
- will this configuration allow me to charge the battery and use excess power at the same time?
- will the automatic transfer switch work in this configuration?
- can a device such as the selected Green Cell DC to AC power inverter operate 24/7?

The grayed out panels are the ones I want to buy and add later.
 

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I checked and counted these panels for this Victron and I can safely connect 20 panels to it (according to the diagram from my previous post). Specs:
435 W
Voc: 39,33 V
Isc: 14,22 A
Vmp: 33,04 V
Imp: 13,17 A
Voc temp: -0,23%
Isc temp: 0,05%

Why I shouldn't use diodes?
 
- will this configuration allow me to charge the battery and use excess power at the same time?
This question is phrased a little strangely... Solar power from the SCC can power the inverter and if there's more power available than the inverter requires, that excess will charge the battery. Also, if solar is producing less power than the inverter requires, the inverter will discharge the battery.

- can a device such as the selected Green Cell DC to AC power inverter operate 24/7?
I haven't heard of this brand, but any decent inverter should have no trouble operating 24/7 as long as battery power is available.
not use hybrid inverters due to their idle power consumption,
The idle power consumption of the inverter you list is specified as 0.5A, which at 53V is about 26W. That's on the low side, but not nothing. You may not be saving much.
 
The idle power consumption of the inverter you list is specified as 0.5A, which at 53V is about 26W. That's on the low side, but not nothing. You may not be saving much.
Hmm true, but 26W is still less than 60W for most hybrid inverters.
 
Why I shouldn't use diodes?
They won't do anything useful. What you're probably thinking you want them to do is stop one shaded string from pulling current from the others, but that's not what happens. A shaded string (or panel) still produces lots enough voltage to stop current from flowing backwards, it just won't produce any power because the current will be low or zero.
What you should have instead in those locations are fuses, probably rated for 20A. If a string fails to a short, the current from the other strings will pass through it instead of the SCC, so the two remaining strings can push ~30A through the shorted string, which is bad. Preventing that is the job of a fuse, not a diode.
 
They won't do anything useful. What you're probably thinking you want them to do is stop one shaded string from pulling current from the others, but that's not what happens. A shaded string (or panel) still produces lots enough voltage to stop current from flowing backwards, it just won't produce any power because the current will be low or zero.
What you should have instead in those locations are fuses, probably rated for 20A. If a string fails to a short, the current from the other strings will pass through it instead of the SCC, so the two remaining strings can push ~30A through the shorted string, which is bad. Preventing that is the job of a fuse, not a diode.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. This is very useful information, thanks!
 
Hmm true, but 26W is still less than 60W for most hybrid inverters.
Yep. And I'm not saying you should necessarily go with an AiO (I'll be installing a separate SCC to take over that function of my AiO), just wanted to point out that idle power draw will still happen.
One additional benefit of an AiO that you may be overlooking is that they can eliminate the need for the transfer switch. If you have grid power available you can wire it into the AiO (or inverter/charger) and run your house with grid power without using a transfer switch.
 
They have forward current voltage drop and just waste energy as heat. Why do you need them?
If shading is an issue as LakeHouse mentioned then Panel Optimizers are a possibility.
I wanted to avoid reverse current.

Yep. And I'm not saying you should necessarily go with an AiO (I'll be installing a separate SCC to take over that function of my AiO), just wanted to point out that idle power draw will still happen.
One additional benefit of an AiO that you may be overlooking is that they can eliminate the need for the transfer switch. If you have grid power available you can wire it into the AiO (or inverter/charger) and run your house with grid power without using a transfer switch.
I think I just found the perfect solution - Solplanet ASW 6000H-S2. This is hybrid inverter with <10W idle consumption, 48V battery support, and MPPT range 40V - 530V and it costs around $650 (local store, non Aliexpress or Alibaba) with 5 year gwaranty - just wow.

It doesn't look like all cheap OEM inverters made by for example Voltronic and sold later under brands like EASun etc.
Here's the datasheet:

Although I am still considering connecting solar panels to it via Victron's SCC.
 
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I wanted to avoid reverse current.


I think I just found the perfect solution - Solplanet ASW 6000H-S2. This is hybrid inverter with <10W idle consumption, 48V battery support, and MPPT range 40V - 530V and it costs around $650 (local store, non Aliexpress or Alibaba) with 5 year gwaranty - just wow.

It doesn't look like all cheap OEM inverters made by for example Voltronic and sold later under brands like EASun etc.
Here's the datasheet:

Although I am still considering connecting solar panels to it via Victron's SCC.
You need to find out what they mean by standby at 10 watts that is not believable when the unit is inverting.
 
Yep. And I'm not saying you should necessarily go with an AiO (I'll be installing a separate SCC to take over that function of my AiO), just wanted to point out that idle power draw will still happen.
One additional benefit of an AiO that you may be overlooking is that they can eliminate the need for the transfer switch. If you have grid power available you can wire it into the AiO (or inverter/charger) and run your house with grid power without using a transfer switch.
Hi, Can you explain that" an AIO can eliminate the need for a transfer switch"? I have just bought a Luxpower 6000 and I have grid power. I am confused though- they say it has a transfer switch, but Will Prowse also states that you have to add a transfer switch. I'd like to have the grid support my solar power when needed. I gather that I can add a sub panel with a few loads on it, but can I have it support all my electrical needs?
Thanks!
 
Hi, Can you explain that" an AIO can eliminate the need for a transfer switch"?
If your AIO can provide enough power to run all of your loads, then there shouldn't be a need for a transfer switch. Either you're running off of battery/solar and the AIO powers everything, OR, you're passing grid power through the AIO to power everything.
On the other hand, if your AIO can't provide enough power to run all of your loads, then you would need a transfer switch to change over your loads from the AIO to grid. I don't have any experience with this, as my setup is off-grid, but others on the forum will be able to provide guidance if you have specific questions.
I gather that I can add a sub panel with a few loads on it, but can I have it support all my electrical needs?
That depends on how much power 'all my electrical needs' is. I run an off-grid cabin on a 3500W inverter with no problems, but I don't have any really big constant loads like electric dryer, air conditioning, electric stove, or water heater.
 
You have been misinformed. High-idle consumption has nothing to do with whether or not the inverter is hybrid or not, it really has to do primarily with the quality of design. Since most of the AiO units out there are of cheap Chinese design/manufacture, it appears that they all have high-idle.

My Schneider XW+ 6848 is a hybrid inverter, but not cheaply designed, so it only has a background consumption of ~30W, maybe only 1/5th of some of the cheap Chinese inverters of the same size.

My 6848 also has a built-in transfer switch, so it can automatically switch to generator/grid power upon demand. I just needed to wire the connections for the generator plug.
 
If your AIO can provide enough power to run all of your loads, then there shouldn't be a need for a transfer switch. Either you're running off of battery/solar and the AIO powers everything, OR, you're passing grid power through the AIO to power everything.
On the other hand, if your AIO can't provide enough power to run all of your loads, then you would need a transfer switch to change over your loads from the AIO to grid. I don't have any experience with this, as my setup is off-grid, but others on the forum will be able to provide guidance if you have specific questions.

That depends on how much power 'all my electrical needs' is. I run an off-grid cabin on a 3500W inverter with no problems, but I don't have any really big constant loads like electric dryer, air conditioning, electric stove, or water heater.

My Opinion - (and some may differ with my take on things and I may be totally wrong)

So I was deeply disappointed to learn that the typical AIO can't handle the full load of a modern house when you read the fine print.

Something like the Sol-Ark 15k or the EG4-18k ... which is misleading anyways since that wattage rating is for the solar only. The Sol-Ark has a built in 200amp pass through switch and it will happily transfer back and forth. But the actual output of the inverter is only 62.5 amps when fully loaded with panels and 50 amps without and running from a sufficient sized battery bank. This is across both legs of the power panel. In the US that number is enough for common items in a gas based household in a mild climate. A/C takes more than that to function and so does an electric oven or a electric water heater or a heat pump. That is skipping the pesky issue of startup for the motors. And, don't even try a hot tub, pool heater or electric furnace.

So if you do manage to overload the 200amp transfer relay/contactor can it be field replaced or do you have to ship it back and wait then install a new one?? I dunno to be honest?

So, what does that leave? A main panel that is tied to a line tap which also feeds a transfer switch. The main panel has breakers 2 pole breakers in it which are hooked up to the AIO. In order to have enough AIO capacity to run the 200amp household you need 4 of these units to be off-grid entirely. And if you are going to be totally off-grid with 4 of the units why would you use an AIO? Chances are you have a large battery bank and a large overpanneled solar array with large enough inverters to run it all.

Seems to me that the AIO market for the Sol-Ark is aimed at people adding solar to their grid tied home. In that case you install it, tie everything to it and put a critical load panel with the things you can't live without. The transfer switch isn't overloaded and only triggers when your batteries are low after a few bad days. Otherwise the critical load panel is always on battery.

None of this gets you away from needing to tie to the grid if you want to have the extra power be available and use a smaller battery bank.

So, download the EG4-18kpv manual and look at page 35 for the easiest way to wire things in. Sub the inverter/MPPT/charger of your choice instead of the EG4 or Sol-Ark and the design is the same.

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but at this point I am soured on the AIO all together and will probably smurf together a system.
 
Hi, Can you explain that" an AIO can eliminate the need for a transfer switch"? I have just bought a Luxpower 6000 and I have grid power. I am confused though- they say it has a transfer switch, but Will Prowse also states that you have to add a transfer switch. I'd like to have the grid support my solar power when needed. I gather that I can add a sub panel with a few loads on it, but can I have it support all my electrical needs?
Thanks!
Ahhh, thank you! Yes, my AIO can run all my loads, unless I have too many cloudy days.
 
If your AIO can provide enough power to run all of your loads, then there shouldn't be a need for a transfer switch. Either you're running off of battery/solar and the AIO powers everything, OR, you're passing grid power through the AIO to power everything.
On the other hand, if your AIO can't provide enough power to run all of your loads, then you would need a transfer switch to change over your loads from the AIO to grid. I don't have any experience with this, as my setup is off-grid, but others on the forum will be able to provide guidance if you have specific questions.

That depends on how much power 'all my electrical needs' is. I run an off-grid cabin on a 3500W inverter with no problems, but I don't have any really big constant loads like electric dryer, air conditioning, electric stove, or water heater.
Yeah, I don't have any big loads here either. So, no sub panel required? I can somehow hook up to my existing household panel? Thanks for your help!
 
Yeah, I don't have any big loads here either. So, no sub panel required? I can somehow hook up to my existing household panel? Thanks for your help!
Yes, the output from your inverter gets wired directly to your existing panel in place of the current grid power connection.
The grid then connects to your AIO. Personally, I would probably have an electrician do the work of disconnecting the grid power from your panel and moving it over to the AIO. I’m hesitant of dealing with grid power before my main panel.
 
And, forgive me if I am wrong, but at this point I am soured on the AIO all together and will probably smurf together a system.
They have their place, but I at least mostly agree that ‘normal’ residential power isn’t it. Maybe in a big RV, or other mobile application where space is at a premium or where people want a simplified plug-and-play kind of solution.
Like I said, I’m also slowly moving functionality away from my AIO. The replacements are/will be individual Victron components.
 
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