power supply's, before you purchase!

[Nan_wpg]

Absolutely

I’m still confused then. When absolutely?

 

[timselectric]

According to,Morningstar the grounding lug connects chassis, and bonds ac neutral. Installer has to ground dc negative which is connected also to the ac

If that's what the manufacturer says to do for that equipment. Then, that's what you should do for that equipment.

 

[timselectric]

I’m still confused then. When absolutely?

When the manufacturer says so.

 

[John Frum]

According to,Morningstar the grounding lug connects chassis, and bonds ac neutral. Installer has to ground dc negative which is connected also to the ac

The chassis grounding lug should have continuity with ac ground.
The neutral/ground bond is another animal.

 

[Nan_wpg]

The chassis grounding lug should have continuity with ac ground.
The neutral/ground bond is another animal.

I,would *think* this is the,case? The manual doesn’t say. But I don’t think you need to earth an inverter for shock protection, it just needs a breaker, and a bonded neutral?/ or is that wrong? The whole point of bonding is to trip the breaker.

if the inverter,is earthed and has no breaker then there’s a shock hazard still? Or am I wrong/?

 

[John Frum]

I,would *think* this is the,case?

I think so also.
Do you have one you can test?

The manual doesn’t say. But I don’t think you need to earth an inverter for shock protection, it just needs a breaker, and a bonded neutral?

The neutral/ground bond provides a low impedance path to clear ground faults.
That is required by NEC rules.
Your premises wiring by NEC rules also needs a connection to the planet.
That connection can be via the inverter or in the main panel depending on the details of the setup.
Connection the electrical system to the planet is about equi-potential.
Think of the planet as a drain, or /dev/null for electrons if you are a coder.

Notice how I'm avoiding the words "ground" and "earth".
They have so much baggage its just adds confusion.

/ or is that wrong? The whole point of bonding is to trip the breaker.

Yes in the case of a ground fault.

if the inverter,is earthed and has no breaker then there’s a shock hazard still? Or am I wrong/?

Now I've lost the plot.
Suggest you read this series of doco.

Grounding Made simpler - Part 1: AC/houshold grounding

To get the paper, click on the orange button at the top of the screen. The subject of grounding is a complex, multifaceted subject, that is often treated as an after-thought but needs to be considered from the beginning of the design and build...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Nan_wpg]

I think so also.
Do you have one you can test?

The neutral/ground bond provides a low impedance path to clear ground faults.
That is required by NEC rules.
Your premises wiring by NEC rules also needs a connection to the planet.
That connection can be via the inverter or in the main panel depending on the details of the setup.
Connection the electrical system to the planet is about equi-potential.
Think of the planet as a drain, or /dev/null for electrons if you are a coder.

Notice how I'm avoiding the words "ground" and "earth".
They have so much baggage its just adds confusion.


Yes in the case of a ground fault.

Now I've lost the plot.
Suggest you read this series of doco.

Grounding Made simpler - Part 1: AC/houshold grounding

To get the paper, click on the orange button at the top of the screen. The subject of grounding is a complex, multifaceted subject, that is often treated as an after-thought but needs to be considered from the beginning of the design and build...

diysolarforum.com

I have read all the documents. The biggest issue is the words and terms. I actually like “planet”. Just about anyone on the planet would know what you are referencing when you say planet. Bond is connect. But to some bond is ground. Then add different electrical systems of other countries and let the confusion begin.

when I,said inverter connected to “planet” but with no breaker there’s still a shock hazard in the context of a ground fault. If that makes sense?/

 

[John Frum]

when I,said inverter connected to “planet” but with no breaker there’s still a shock hazard in the context of a ground fault. If that makes sense?/

Maybe.

A typical thermal or magnetic breaker doesn't protect humans from shocks.
It protects your property from fire due to over-current events including short circuits.
It also protects your property from ground faults.
The neutral/ground bond connects the ground wire to the neutral wire so that you have low enough impedance return path to trip the breaker.

AFCI(arc fault circuit interrupter) breakers prevent fires by detecting the digital signature of an arc and tripping.

GFCI(ground fault circuit interrupter) breakers do prevent fatal shocks by tripping the breaker on current mismatch between hot and neutral.

Hope that helps.

 

[Nan_wpg]

Maybe.

A typical thermal or magnetic breaker doesn't protect humans from shocks.
It protects your property from fire due to over-current events including short circuits.
It also protects your property from ground faults.
The neutral/ground bond connects the ground wire to the neutral wire so that you have low enough impedance return path to trip the breaker.

AFCI(arc fault circuit interrupter) breakers prevent fires by detecting the digital signature of an arc and tripping.

GFCI(ground fault circuit interrupter) breakers do prevent fatal shocks by tripping the breaker on current mismatch between hot and neutral.

Hope that helps.

I’m actually more confused. A breaker protects the wire (ac home breaker). It also prevents shock if metal (equipment) becomes hot by tripping breaker?? (Low impedance return path to trip breaker) yes?

so your saying breakers, and the whole neutral bond thing is to protect from over current fire? Then why bond? If there’s too much current the breaker will trip even without a bond.

so then wouldn’t a. breaker protect both over current, AND shock to humans?

 

[timselectric]

Actually a breaker or fuse serves two purposes.
Overcurrent protection for the circuit conductors.
And fault protection for people.
A GFCI takes people protection to a higher level.

 

[John Frum]

A breaker protects the wire (ac home breaker).

Yes.
It protects the wire from starting a fire.
The only breaker that protects humans from shock is the gfci.

It also prevents shock if metal (equipment) becomes hot by tripping breaker??

Only the gfci protects from shock.
The green/bare wire is there to protect your house from burning.
After it trips then it protects the humans because the fault condition is cleared.

(Low impedance return path to trip breaker) yes?

What?

so your saying breakers, and the whole neutral bond thing is to protect from over current fire?

Over-current including short circuits.
Ground faults use the green wire then n-g bond then neutral to clear the fault.
All primarily to protect against fire.

Then why bond? If there’s too much current the breaker will trip even without a bond.

Over-current protection including short circuits use only the neutral wire as the return path.
Ground faults use the ground wire back to the n-g bond then the neutral back to source to clear the fault.

so then wouldn’t a. breaker protect both over current, AND shock to humans?

Only GFCI directly protects humans against shock.
A ground fault indirectly protects humans against shock by clearing the fault path by opening the breaker.

I think I'm confusing you further.
Maybe @FilterGuy can meet you where yer at.

 

[timselectric]

To clarify
The purpose of the entire grounding system is safety of personnel from shock. Electrical fires are generally started from too much current overheating conductors. While possible, it's rarely from a fault.

 

[Checkthisout]

To clarify
The purpose of the entire grounding system is safety of personnel from shock. Electrical fires are generally started from too much current overheating conductors. While possible, it's rarely from a fault.

Rodents chewing.

 

[EZ Generator Switch]

What’s the harm in a “bonding plug”?

neutral bond in “only one place”, and close to the source, which in this case is the portable power pack. (Off grid remote no power, water, or people).

i,can see if you plug the power box into a wall, and then use a “binding plug”. You’d have 2 bonds. A no no.

The NEC is very clear on where you bond a neutral, "close" is not a word they use

 

[EZ Generator Switch]

How about an Inergy? We have one but it was not bought for that, it would just be good to know if it will work for that.

They would have to give you that answer.

 

[EZ Generator Switch]

To clarify
The purpose of the entire grounding system is safety of personnel from shock. Electrical fires are generally started from too much current overheating conductors. While possible, it's rarely from a fault.

Amen...

 

[EZ Generator Switch]

To clarify
The purpose of the entire grounding system is safety of personnel from shock. Electrical fires are generally started from too much current overheating conductors. While possible, it's rarely from a fault.

Tim
is your system tied into the house?

 

[timselectric]

Tim
is your system tied into the house?

My system feeds the house. But, has no grid input connected.

 

[Nan_wpg]

The NEC is very clear on where you bond a neutral, "close" is not a word they use

Where does it say? I know bond neutral in ONLY one place. I thought it was as close to the source as possible?

 

[timselectric]

Where does it say? I know bond neutral in ONLY one place. I thought it was as close to the source as possible?

At or before the first means of disconnect.