Radon Gas - anyone deal with it?

[DIYrich]

I don’t see where I made any observations, general or specific, about the cost to remove radon. ?‍

You did mention a long-term test to confirm. IMHO, a short term test to confirm. If you have under 2 on the second, then a third short term (don't know which of the first two is correct) and long-term to confirm no need to mitigate.

With all this testing, you might as well just mitigate, and not worry about it.

 

[OzSolar]

You did mention a long-term test to confirm. IMHO, a short term test to confirm. If you have under 2 on the second, then a third short term (don't know which of the first two is correct) and long-term to confirm no need to mitigate.

With all this testing, you might as well just mitigate, and not worry about it.

If testing was expensive that would be a logical approach.

But I’ll have less than $50 in testing after the long term test is done so I’m going to hold off for another month until the 2nd test (the long term) is done. We don’t smoke or spend much time in the basement.

 

[Hedges]

“It should also be noted that radon remediation significantly increases lung cancer mortality. To dispel the fear and eliminate this economic burden, the action level should be raised by a factor of at least seven, where the health benefit is near optimum."

Extraordinary claims.


A comment below the article:

"I'm trying to figure out this statement: "It should also be noted that radon remediation significantly increases lung cancer mortality." I'm not on any particular side here, just wondering the facts behind the idea that reducing radon decay products from being inhaled increases cancer mortality. Thanks!"

From the article:

'Arbitrary standards such as these ignore thousands of studies disproving LNT and demonstrating radiation s hormetic effect that a "toxic" exposure at high levels can be beneficial at lower doses. Hormesis applies to radiation, too. Dr. Cuttler has asserted that no harmful health effects have ever been detected in high natural radiation background areas, most notably (for the American Council, anyway) in his publication, "Nuclear Energy and Health, and the Benefits of Low-level Radiation Hormesis." Compared to average-dose regions, rates of both cancer and congenital disease are consistently decreased, rather than increased.'

The linked article

http://acsh.org/2009/03/nuclear-energy-and-health-and-the-benefits-of-low-dose-radiation-hormesis/

... could not be found, but searching for it seems to have found it:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19343116/

(abstract)

"Radiation hormesis is explained, pointing out that beneficial effects are expected following a low dose or dose rate because protective responses against stresses are stimulated."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2203/dose-response.08-024.Cuttler

(full article)

tl;dr:
Cancer deaths are lower in counties with higher natural radon exposure.
Being "vaccinated" with radiation produces an immune response.

Spreading Calmness, Uncertainty, and Doubt?

 

[Crowz]

Here's a radon map that I pulled off the web from a Google search.
I suppose if you're in the areas that are red, then you might want to look into getting a radon test. If you're in the other areas, don't worry as much.

Figures I'm in zone 1 in my states

 

[DIYrich]

If testing was expensive that would be a logical approach.

But I’ll have less than $50 in testing after the long term test is done so I’m going to hold off for another month until the 2nd test (the long term) is done. We don’t smoke or spend much time in the basement.

So you have 5% of the cost of mitigation for testing. Unless you are certain that the 8 level test is an anomaly, you will need to continue to spend for testing ever year or two unless you mitigate.

 

[OzSolar]

So you have 5% of the cost of mitigation for testing. Unless you are certain that the 8 level test is an anomaly, you will need to continue to spend for testing ever year or two unless you mitigate.

I'm just followng the testing lab's recomendation which is that at my level you should deploy a long term test before making a decision to mitigate.

I should mention that my basement has an 8" concrete ceiling with 2 layers of rebar on 12" centers since it's also our tornado shelter. Punching through there is not going to be easy or cheap. Further complicating matters is the radiant in floor tubing in the concrete so mitigation may not be as simple as others or I likely would have already done it myself.

 

[Crowz]

Wouldn't a blower system moving air as ventilation via the basement or crawlspace pretty much eliminate the problem?

 

[Hedges]

my basement has an 8" concrete ceiling with 2 layers of rebar on 12" centers since it's also our tornado shelter. Punching through there is not going to be easy or cheap.

Rotohammer could make 1/2" hole, about 2" depth per minute. 4 minutes work.
Sucking air out that should provide enough exchange.

Or another direction, horizonal through wall?
My basement flooded the first year due to rain. I'm on a slope so I made gravity drain to lower point.

 

[curiouscarbon]

[ Rhetoric suggesting that intentionally exposing humans to higher levels of radon is ethical ]

[ Link to American Council on Science and Health website allaying fears of radon exposure at home ]

The American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) is a pro-industry advocacy organization founded in 1978 by Elizabeth Whelan.

American Council on Science and Health - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Elizabeth Whelan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Love Canal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

During the 1940s, the canal was purchased by Hooker Chemical Company, which used the site to dump 19,800 t (19,500 long tons; 21,800 short tons) of chemical byproducts from the manufacturing of dyes, perfumes, and solvents for rubber and synthetic resins.

In 1998 Dr. Elizabeth Whelan, founder of the American Council on Science and Health wrote an editorial asserting that the media triggered hysteria among the residents when it called Love Canal a “public health time bomb”, and that illness among the residents was caused less by chemical waste than by stress – this in spite of an EPA study showing that 33% of the residents had undergone chromosomal damage.

Love Canal is a neighborhood in Niagara Falls, New York, United States, infamous as the location of a 0.28 km2 (0.11 sq mi) landfill that became the site of an enormous environmental disaster in the 1970s. Decades of dumping toxic chemicals harmed the health of hundreds of residents;[1] the area was cleaned up over the course of 21 years in a Superfund operation.

best known for promoting science that was favorable to industry

this woman is literally haunting people from the beyond, they passed away in 2014.

---

Let's continue rationally discussing Radon in residential setting.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Extraordinary claims.


A comment below the article:

"I'm trying to figure out this statement: "It should also be noted that radon remediation significantly increases lung cancer mortality." I'm not on any particular side here, just wondering the facts behind the idea that reducing radon decay products from being inhaled increases cancer mortality. Thanks!"

From the article:

'Arbitrary standards such as these ignore thousands of studies disproving LNT and demonstrating radiation s hormetic effect that a "toxic" exposure at high levels can be beneficial at lower doses. Hormesis applies to radiation, too. Dr. Cuttler has asserted that no harmful health effects have ever been detected in high natural radiation background areas, most notably (for the American Council, anyway) in his publication, "Nuclear Energy and Health, and the Benefits of Low-level Radiation Hormesis." Compared to average-dose regions, rates of both cancer and congenital disease are consistently decreased, rather than increased.'

The linked article

http://acsh.org/2009/03/nuclear-energy-and-health-and-the-benefits-of-low-dose-radiation-hormesis/

... could not be found, but searching for it seems to have found it:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19343116/

(abstract)

"Radiation hormesis is explained, pointing out that beneficial effects are expected following a low dose or dose rate because protective responses against stresses are stimulated."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2203/dose-response.08-024.Cuttler

(full article)

tl;dr:
Cancer deaths are lower in counties with higher natural radon exposure.
Being "vaccinated" with radiation produces an immune response.

Spreading Calmness, Uncertainty, and Doubt?

Hormesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baseline radon exposure is defined as what someone would experience breathing outdoors in a given location. No enclosing structure.

In a residential context, a "tent" is assembled over a specific plot of land that is emitting a varying amount of radon gas.

It acts as an upside down collection bucket.

Hormesis is a mechanism that applies in some situations, in my understanding/opinion. Don't necessarily know which ones for which molecules.

Apple Hormesis and Doctors, or something.

---

Outdoor ambient radon exposure with Wind and Atmospheric Dilution is a conceptual concentration level that I am totally fine with.
With an upside down bucket house, the levels rise "unnaturally" or "artificially" in the absence of active ventilation with outside.
Mitigating to Ambient is the usual goal anyways.

---

Those who wish to profit from building houses, will have an incentive to exclude radon mitigation mechanisms due to the cost of protection of life, in the face of a goal to gain from a finite resource.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Two sides of the conversation are "mining context" and "residential context" concentration levels.

In a coal mine, the concentration levels can be a handful of orders of magnitude greater than outdoor ambient levels, or even residential levels.
Those sort of doses are commonly accepted to be harmful to the vast majority of humans.

In a house/home, the concentration levels can be closer to 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than outdoor ambient levels. The correlation to harm in this range is much less explored. Why? It's more cost effective to place sensors in a mine than distribute them across a continent

For each human, the time-series radon exposure level is one of the basic data sequences needed to really address the danger to health.

 

[Hedges]

this woman is literally haunting people from the beyond, they passed away in 2014.

---

Let's continue rationally discussing Radon in residential setting.

So between them, EPA and Dr. Elizabeth Whelan established that stress causes chromosomal damage?

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. That's called psychosomatic illness, and it is a real thing.

Somatic symptom disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When I presented to an ophthalmologist and asked if the retina damage, which she could see, could be caused by Avalox (fluroquinilone antibiotic) or UV, she said "No". She attributed it to "stress", psychological stress.

I got home, googled "Avalox Retina" and found a veterinary study which showed Avalox at proper dosage plus UV caused retina damage. Retina damage was later added to warnings for that drug.

 

[OzSolar]

Rotohammer could make 1/2" hole, about 2" depth per minute. 4 minutes work.

I've got a 2" SDS Max drill (the biggest they make) and bits up to 2" so we're talking about seconds to dril that hole in virgin concrete.

But if I hit rebar then I've ruined a very expensive drill bit AND have to abandon that hole. Then there's the radiant in floor tubing, hitting that would result in a very long and expensive day to make those repairs

Of course I would use my thermal camera with to find the radiant tubing but I'm not sure I'd trust it 100% due to odd paralax thing that a thermal camera can do. My only defense against the rebar would be a diamond core drill bit which I don't have.

Sucking air out that should provide enough exchange.

Not even remotely close. Try a 4" pipe coupled with a ~150cfm/watt fan.

 

[Hedges]

Can you locate rebar with metal detector?
I think radar is the commercial approach.

Is the building pure concrete all the way around, including blast doors?

Drill enough half-inch holes and you have a vent larger rodents can't fit through.
Drill around outline of desired 4" pipe then chisel it out. I did that on a roof for a 8" square opening, then followed up with Bosch Brute jackhammer.
(Client had to go deal with a neighbor who was trying to sleep in on the weekend in the industrial condo building, said, "He chooses to remain in an inarticulate rage.")

 

[LittleLebowski]

such a scam. Try checking granite countertops for radiation sometime.