Residential Solar Options

[Jman99]

Good morning,
I have been researching “all in one” residential solar installation companies around Toronto, Ontario. I was close to signing with one when I came across this amazing forum.
I realized I could get a lot more bang for my buck by avoiding these “all in one companies”, however I’m also not very handy.

I’m looking to have a system installed that has option to add batteries either now or in the future.

I have a south facing roof that can handles 37-40 smaller panels (eg. Longi 405w) or 27-32 larger panels.

My house, which we recently purchased, is heated mainly by electricity and therefore our electricity usage is quite high, around 20,000-23,000 Kwh per year.

I have been advised that the following would be a good choice:

1. Growatt Min10000TL (most economical however batteries are quite expensive)
2. Sol-Ark 15 K
3. Luxpower 18Kpv

My questions:

1. Could anyone recommend a specific system that would work for me?
2. Would you recommend I chose one of these “all in one” solar companies or hand pick my own equipment and hire someone to install?
   
   1. If purchasing my own equipment is the way to go, what are some companies you would recommend and trust?
   2. Do you have any recommendations for solar installers in and around the Toronto/Barrie Area (Ontario)

3. What hybrid inverters would you recommend?
4. Would Tigo Optimizers be a good choice. I have been reading a lot (on this forum) about the fire hazard these optimizers pose? Are there other optimizers that would be recommended?

If anyone needs any more information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks so much!

Happy New Year!

 

[DIYrich]

Avoid the growatt because of batteries. Sol-ark is good. Don't know about luxpower, but I think they make the eg4 18kpv, which is good.

Go to sol-arks website to find installers near you.

Optimizers are good if you have shading issues. You probably need rapid shutdown, so for a little more, you can get optimization and panel level monitoring.

 

[chrisski]

23 MWh/ yr is a respectable amount. Also nice to know the per day high and low usage. For me it's 30 kWh / day in the winter and a high of 160 kWh/day in the summer.

Also, a reasonable amount of items, not the whole house to be put on a critical loads system. I recommend something you can stack and allow the system to grow, and when you do phase 1 of the install, have a plan to install phase 2 and on.
=================
I use an Outback Radian and this can be stacked to grow bigger. The Radian is a 8 kW inverter that is capable of surging to much more than that and when this is running the critical loads panel, I expect a 6 kW draw in the summer. It turned on the older 4 ton AC off the batteries. The AC has a 4 kW draw when running.

I have 200 amps of service which is equivalent to a 48 kW inverter.

 

[Hedges]

If you want to have heat when grid is down, consider adding a propane or oil fired system. Maybe as a water heater with plumbed radiators.
Batteries are far to expensive to use for heat during occasional power failures.

"Electric heat" - is that resistance or heat pump?
Is your outside air temperature too low for heat pumps to be effective? Is groundwater or buried pipe a viable option.
Don't necessarily stick with hybrid/all in one. Component systems can have each part sized to your needs.

Schneider. Midnight.

Something I'm going to install is SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy. Initially as grid-tie PV. It has the option of adding (high priced) HV battery. Option for external transfer switch and split-phase transformer. Not the cheap solution, and not very good surge for motors, but a UL listed ESS that will be suitable for some customers.

The Schneider (LF) and Midnight (HF) will have much more motor-starting surge, and are stackable.
The others you consider may also meet your needs. Find their surge capability (for a couple seconds), and the surge requirements of your loads.

Optimizers - generally not a useful thing. Maybe to combine multiple tilt/orientation in series if not too different.
RSD may be required for rooftop mount, then optimizer with module-level monitoring is a smaller step up in price.
I prefer just panels connected in series, nothing but internal bypass diodes. Still allowed for ground mounts.
Fires most likely with mix-n-match "MC4" connectors. Only same brand or UL listed together are to be used. Many panels these days come with genuine Stabuli MC4; if RSD/Optimizer and extension cables have those too, that is best.

Whatever inverter you go with, need RSD or optimizer that is compatible, especially keep-alive signal and voltage out while off to wake up keep-alive. Tigo in particular got in a tiff with SunSpec. Some of their modules may be compatible with SMA, or maybe not. SMA was offering a branded solution.

Plan everything (including future battery), price it out, only buy what is compatible and approved in your jurisdiction.

 

[Danke]

If you’re going with an installer, you’re probably stuck with what they have for inventory. But you can list it here and we can tell you a price you can buy on the market to help you negotiate with the installer, as they will invariably mark it up.

 

[Hedges]

So see what installer has to offer, if it meets your current and future needs. Including battery capacity and price.
Then see what other installers offer. And what other products exist, whether those installers offer it or not.
They want to sell, so they sell what they have and know. Not what you want or need.

 

[Jman99]

Thanks so much for all your input everyone. I will organize my top quotes in a spreadsheet and post here. Thank you.

Regarding hybrid inverters, are there any you would recommend and any that you would for sure stay away from?

 

[chrisski]

Regarding hybrid inverters, are there any you would recommend and any that you would for sure stay away from?

Really depends on what you want. A high surge capability could drive you to a Tier 1 Product like an Outback Radian or similar item, or if grid sell back is all you really want, you could go that route.

I have a south facing roof that can handles 37-40 smaller panels (eg. Longi 405w) or 27-32 larger panels.

For this, does this include setback from the top and sides of roof and room for the firefighters to walk across?
=================
My planning rates for a contracted install is $15k per 5 kW of panels installed prior to tax rebate and $10k per 10 kwH of battery pack installed, also prior to tax rebate. It will vary from there, but locally that is a good idea to get planning.
=================
In your quote, ask for a 50 amp generator plug to be installed to somewhere you will plug a generator in. No need to buy a generator yet, this gets the system ready. Also, keep in mind that the generator will likely need to be a 240 volt split phase to work with the charger. Of course the two generators I have are only 120 volt single phase.

 

[DIYrich]

Thanks so much for all your input everyone. I will organize my top quotes in a spreadsheet and post here. Thank you.

Regarding hybrid inverters, are there any you would recommend and any that you would for sure stay away from?

Sol-ark 15k or eg4 18kpv. See what your peak usage is. You may need to parallel a second unit.

 

[Hedges]

SolarEdge (StorEdge would be the hybrid) is popular with installers (as is Enphase), but I've seen too many reports of SolarEdge hardware failures. Also reports of no problems from some people on the forum.

SolArk, people seem to like except some complain about (1) the price especially compared to Deye or whatever similar/identical model is used in other countries, and (2) The model number referring to maximum PV wattage rather than inverter wattage (the difference can charge batteries at the same time. But we hear support is great and the unit is very capable. AC coupling to GT PV is possible (for additional capacity while the sun shines or existing systems) but certain configurations are recommended, don't assume.

I'm using Sunny Island AC coupled with Sunny Boy (not a hybrid). Very capable and high quality, lacks shaving and time shift functions good or recent utility plan change. I would not have what or as much as I do if I didn't find liquidation prices.

Midnight Rosie + SCC is worth looking at. Also not a hybrid. These are the engineers who drove the industry for several decades.

Outback and Schneider are both good brands.

See vendors Current Connected, Alt E store, Stella Volta.

Oh, much of what I'm suggesting probably isn't related to getting a turn-key installation.

 

[Jman99]

SolarEdge (StorEdge would be the hybrid) is popular with installers (as is Enphase), but I've seen too many reports of SolarEdge hardware failures. Also reports of no problems from some people on the forum.

SolArk, people seem to like except some complain about (1) the price especially compared to Deye or whatever similar/identical model is used in other countries, and (2) The model number referring to maximum PV wattage rather than inverter wattage (the difference can charge batteries at the same time. But we hear support is great and the unit is very capable. AC coupling to GT PV is possible (for additional capacity while the sun shines or existing systems) but certain configurations are recommended, don't assume.

I'm using Sunny Island AC coupled with Sunny Boy (not a hybrid). Very capable and high quality, lacks shaving and time shift functions good or recent utility plan change. I would not have what or as much as I do if I didn't find liquidation prices.

Midnight Rosie + SCC is worth looking at. Also not a hybrid. These are the engineers who drove the industry for several decades.

Outback and Schneider are both good brands.

See vendors Current Connected, Alt E store, Stella Volta.

Oh, much of what I'm suggesting probably isn't related to getting a turn-key installation.

Thanks for your wealth of knowledge!

My main objective is to have battery backup and also utilize time of use (charging battery at night during off peak energy costs) and sell back to the grid during peak hours.

Is a hybrid inverter necessary or would it possible to pair batteries for my objective to a regular inverter?

What would the cost of setting up AC coupling be , generally speaking?

One option that was given to me was the growatt min 10 k.. any experience with this inverter?

 

[zanydroid]

Midnight Rosie + SCC is worth looking at. Also not a hybrid. These are the engineers who drove the industry for several decades.

Only for off grid. I wish they cared more about grid tie so I could justify buying one to play with. Even for off grid in California it will not be legal to install (excluding the recycled EV battery exemption) until the 9540 DC ESS variant is implemented

Is a hybrid inverter necessary or would it possible to pair batteries for my objective to a regular inverter?

What is the architecture you have in mind?

Difference between a storage only inverter and a hybrid is no MPPT. Could be AC or DC coupled to a string inverter or an MPPT, respectively. DC coupling regulations are painful nowadays in the U.S., not sure about Canada

Hybrid makes things simpler.

What would the cost of setting up AC coupling be , generally speaking?

The cost is extra support hardware. At present the cheapest AC coupled inverter that I like is 18kpv. You can also do XW for grid tie but it is huge and does not have the same good price point for a UL9540 system (which is required in my state). UL9540 is a combined certification for storage inverter and battery as of early 2024. It will be revised to be more flexible but that is just for intellectual wonking right now

One option that was given to me was the growatt min 10 k.. any experience with this inverter?

I read through the manual extensively to help another member. It has many technically inelegant things about it, but it is cheap and capable of addressing requirements of some users.

Currently in the UL9540 world you either pick cheap inverter and expensive battery. Or expensive battery and cheap inverter. The growatt is in the latter category. I don’t like the thought of pairing it with Growatt’s proprietary ARO battery since you will be stuck with a massive paperweight if the inverter dies and growatt no longer supports it. It is also UL9540 listed with LG Resu batteries

Canada has much less selection than the U.S. and probably different regulations. It behooves you to hunt for a thread focused on the regulations and available hardware. Unfortunately for you I can’t think of a regular forum contributor posting on Canada specific obsessively regulation oriented material, unlike for the US and UK

For instance one issue with available hardware is that it may end up everything is about equally expensive up there, in which case you can just buy a SolArk

 

[DIYrich]

My main objective is to have battery backup and also utilize time of use (charging battery at night during off peak energy costs) and sell back to the grid during peak hours.

Is a hybrid inverter necessary or would it possible to pair batteries for my objective to a regular inverter?

Time of use, especially with sell back timing, is the province of the more advanced hybrid inverters (eg4 18kpv or solarks).

 

[zanydroid]

My general advice for myself (in California) is to wait a year because I expect ESS prices to go down $3-4k. My dream is for 18kpv capability to be available ant half the price. Or if that doesn’t happen, I can get a compliant install with cheap batteries and good enough functionality for that price. I installed solar against a regulatory deadline but there is no such deadline, while there are many structural things pushing down cost.

However if Canada is always a year behind the U.S. in getting stuff then that strategy means you wait two years. And random stuff anyway stays expensive up there. Again this is where finding someone in Canada to advise you will help.

 

[Jman99]

Time of use, especially with sell back timing, is the province of the more advanced hybrid inverters (eg4 18kpv or solarks).

Thank you!

Comparing those two, which would you reccomend?

Also, this was one option that was provided to me as well ( Luxpower 18KPV Hybrid Inverter). Do you have any insight on this?

 

[zanydroid]

Also, this was one option that was provided to me as well ( Luxpower 18KPV Hybrid Inverter). Do you have any insight on this?

That's the 18kpv except without EG4 rebadge. So you get the pros/cons of cutting out the North America middleperson and having Chinese support.

EDIT: I am not sure what the regulatory situation is if you go with LuxPower directly. It depends on what the lab certificates and approved equipment list (if that's a thing in your province/canada, that is a thing in California) say, and you will need that to attest to CSA etc.

 

[chrisski]

I’d caution you around designing a system for an installer. If they are unfamiliar with the setup, they will learn on your dollar. Also, they may install a system they are not a certified seller for. My certified seller has gone back to other installer’s installations and made them operable.

There’s a lot of beeps and squeaks on these things. Through trial and error for mine, one of the things that the installer has helped with is the manual says wifi is a valid setup, but they constantly have issues with that and have to use a CAT5 cable to the router to get internet access. There’s much more.

Other things like permitting, they will be familiar with what they sell. One California member got an inverter approved off the official site, but after he had it found it was not on the state approved spreadsheet, so that held up installation. If this contractor has installed that brand, won’t run into those issues.

Also, with a distributor, they are more likely to have that product at home. My installer has the basically the same system he put in my house, except at his house he went with a two inverter install for more power and a bigger battery pack.

Once you find what system you want, I recommend contacting the company that manufactures the product and find who the local distributor is. If there is one, contact the company. If there is not. Local distributor, go to #2 on the list.

If there is not anything you want locally, go to the reviews and see who does good work and see what they install, and look at that equipment.

Tesla seems to be able to quickly install and get their equipment up and running. My local town, most battery installations are Tesla. There is advantages to that. Other things not so hot about Tesla is after installation support.

 

[Danke]

That's the 18kpv except without EG4 rebadge. So you get the pros/cons of cutting out the North America middleperson and having Chinese support.

EDIT: I am not sure what the regulatory situation is if you go with LuxPower directly. It depends on what the lab certificates and approved equipment list (if that's a thing in your province/canada, that is a thing in California) say, and you will need that to attest to CSA etc.

If you don’t need the certificates, one could buy two of those from China for the price of one here.

 

[Hedges]

Thanks for your wealth of knowledge!

My main objective is to have battery backup and also utilize time of use (charging battery at night during off peak energy costs) and sell back to the grid during peak hours.

Is a hybrid inverter necessary or would it possible to pair batteries for my objective to a regular inverter?

What would the cost of setting up AC coupling be , generally speaking?

One option that was given to me was the growatt min 10 k.. any experience with this inverter?

There are AC coupled batteries, Tesla Powerwall and SMA Sunny Boy Storage, for instance. The batteries compatible with SMA are high priced.
Certainly they support zero-export, and backup (with extra hardware.) I'm not certain about time of use shifting. When I read SMA's newer product documentation, it doesn't answer all my questions.

Then there is Sunny Island, which I have. Liquidation deals are available, but consider that for DIY not an installer to set up for you.

In general, AC coupling is going to cost more than a hybrid.

The Sunny Boy Smart Energy I'm going to install for my sister supports 15kW PV, has 7.7kW inverter (only surges to about 9.xkW), can connect one 32kWh battery ($18k!) and charge up to 10kW. This should bank power during the day to export when sun is lower, I presume can be told when to do so.

I've never dealt with Growatt, or anything other than SMA.

Now that EG4 has an inverter and weatherproof 14kWh battery ($4000) as UL listed ESS, that may be a very attractive package.
I don't know if it works without hiccups, or if there are issues. You'll need to find out about its peak shifting features.

Some forum members have mixed Schneider with Enphase, and while AC coupling was supported, they found it didn't provide same functions as with DC coupled PV. Things that aren't primary function often don't do what you want. Same goes for my Sunny island, great off-grid and backup system, doesn't let me game time of use rates.

 

[Jman99]

Thanks again.

Regarding optimizers for the hybrid inverters mentioned above (sol ark, luxpower, eg4).

What would be recommended?

What options are there?