Residential Solar Options

[zanydroid]

Thanks again.

Regarding optimizers for the hybrid inverters mentioned above (sol ark, luxpower, eg4).

What would be recommended?

What options are there?

Don't get optimizers without a reason to get them.

I haven't heard of fire risks with optimizers beyond that intrinsic to adding more connection points. Optimizers tend to include Rapid Shutdown which is required by code on a roof and is supposed to improve safety for first responders.

There's basically only TIGO and SolArk optimizers. The SolArk optimizer are pretty new, I'm not even sure they're on the market yet. They're more complex than TIGOs in terms of the optimization circuitry & algorithm that they have (they have per-optimizer MPPT and I believe buck/boost (drop and raise voltage), while TIGOs do not have MPPT and are buck only. The buck-only design of TIGO interacts with string MPPT in ways I understand better and expect to be broadly compatible with no risks, though note I'm not a product designer in the industry...)

TIGOs have been around for a while which means plenty of people have installed them and posted threads about them. However there's also posts from folks on the forum like TIGOs interacting poorly with AFCI detection on some inverters.

The fact that SolArk are new, plus are more complex/have voltage boost capability, disincline me to using them. On SolarEdge (which is a proprietary optimizer system, with per panel buck/boost and MPPT) there is some magic that the inverter does to tell the optimizers what voltage to converge to. If I was running a solar installation company, sure I would probably do a test install at my office or house. But I just have the one system I install for myself, and I don't make money playing with random stuff.

Err, actually there's another new one, whose name escapes me, that is in the same functionality class as SolArk (per-panel MPPT, buck/boost). One or two threads about that. Also bleeding edge new, and same issues.

 

[Hedges]

First consider what inverter manufacturer recommends or sells. Sometimes there have been incompatibilities.
Some inverters support RSD directly (SMA), others have an output to power keep-alive (SolArk).
I'm going to be using Tigo RSD with SMA, although they have parted ways.

I recommend not using optimizers. What do you think you want them for?

1. Would you recommend I chose one of these “all in one” solar companies or hand pick my own equipment and hire someone to install?
   
   1. If purchasing my own equipment is the way to go, what are some companies you would recommend and trust?
   2. Do you have any recommendations for solar installers in and around the Toronto/Barrie Area (Ontario)

We would recommend against purchasing equipment with the idea you're going to get someone else to install it. Likely very difficult getting an installer to agree, and if anyone does may not have competence with that equipment.

You may be able to find an installer prior to buying anything, who agrees to install particular models you're going to buy. But he will provide balance of system hardware at pricing he sets. Maybe if he quotes a particular system, he can then strike out line items you're going to buy instead. But he probably makes a profit on those items. You're offering him work where he doesn't have to front the cost of certain items, but he needs to make most of the profit/markup he would have made. And you have to agree on how damaged material will be dealt with.

 

[zanydroid]

Purchasing major equipment to have an installer put it in for you in general does not work well, outside of solar as well. At least in the US. That's just how the licensed contractor game works in a healthy economy (In a down economy, contractors are starving so you can make them work in ways they'd rather not work). If you want to do better than that, you have to have some contracting expertise of your own to know who to talk to / who to hire (as subs or employees). Random homeowner can't do it.

 

[zanydroid]

My house, which we recently purchased, is heated mainly by electricity and therefore our electricity usage is quite high, around 20,000-23,000 Kwh per year.

Is it already on a modern heat pump? It's a slam dunk win to switch to HP from baseboards and there are lots of incentives in Canada.

Any solar system sizing should be done with the HP load in mind, since it will be lower.

 

[Danke]

Purchasing major equipment to have an installer put it in for you in general does not work well, outside of solar as well. At least in the US. That's just how the licensed contractor game works in a healthy economy (In a down economy, contractors are starving so you can make them work in ways they'd rather not work). If you want to do better than that, you have to have some contracting expertise of your own to know who to talk to / who to hire (as subs or employees). Random homeowner can't do it.

Installer might get a good price break on the equipment. So even with their markup, it might be the same price you would pay retail. Find out what you can get it for and ask them if they can at least match it.

 

[zanydroid]

Installer might get a good price break on the equipment. So even with their markup, it might be the same price you would pay retail. Find out what you can get it for and ask them if they can at least match it.

I've heard this before but how do you escape the rest of their cost model, especially if they don't itemize? For microinverters in California turnkey is over 100% higher than DIY and quotes are not itemized.

I guess saving $0.05-0.10 / W is better than not saving it.

 

[Hedges]

Any reason OP can't DIY?

 

[Jman99]

Any reason OP can't DIY?

I’m not handy at all. I would love to but not something I would be comfortable with for sure.

 

[zanydroid]

I’m not handy at all. I would love to but not something I would be comfortable with for sure.

Then the smart approach would be to understand solar to the level of abstraction of a "boss", and spend a lot of time leveling up on the soft skills related to contracting. This forum is not ideal for either of those, useless for the latter and for the former you have to take the firehose oriented towards DIY (For instance, all the industry trends / power electronics behavior is kind of irrelevant, compared to: "How does this work?" How much will it cost? What support will you give me?) and factor out the boss-level takeaways. Maybe there are some explainer documents written for this level of abstraction, I know some bloggers that do this for home electrification (including heat pumps).

If you just want a system, with no cost optimization, then pick your top two or three that meet the functional and performance requirements and contact the manufacturer for a referral / ask in a local forum / ask local distributors.

 

[zanydroid]

The kind of stuff you should really use this forum (and maybe r/solar) for would be to do the following after getting a detailed turnkey proposal

1. vetting equipment selection vs typical cost in your area and your performance /functional goals
2. vetting the vendor's production estimate
3. vetting the layout

I should have done (2) and (3) for my turnkey install.

 

[Jman99]

The kind of stuff you should really use this forum (and maybe r/solar) for would be to do the following after getting a detailed turnkey proposal

1. vetting equipment selection vs typical cost in your area and your performance /functional goals
2. vetting the vendor's production estimate
3. vetting the layout

I should have done (2) and (3) for my turnkey install.

Great advice! I do have my top proposals that I will provide when I get a chance to organize them over the next day or so.

 

[Jman99]

regarding the hybrid inverters. Would it be recommended to purchase the xtended warranty for 20 years? I’ve been quoted for the solark 15 $1250.

 

[zanydroid]

regarding the hybrid inverters. Would it be recommended to purchase the xtended warranty for 20 years? I’ve been quoted for the solark 15 $1250.

Who's going to be around for 20 years to honor that :laugh:

20 years is not a reasonable lifespan for that inverter, so I guess you get a free inverter. It's probably prorated 20 years though if they're smart.

Generally I believe in self insuring (keep the $1250 for myself) over buying extended warranty unless the warranty was priced completely wrong, IE CarMax used to write extended warranty for the worst offending European garage queens (and in that case there would be forum all over it, though probably not for solar).

 

[Hedges]

For edutainment, please provide a link to warranty terms, and tell us how you see it.

SMA warranties are for a number of years, but the fine print also limits to kWh processed. They used to have 5 year warranties on everything, some now longer standard and some optional to 25 years. They of course have decades of experience to go by. But for new products of new architecture, they have to base costs on engineering analysis.

As years go by, I find equipment on the used market. Also new model MSRP sometimes also cost less. So self insuring makes sense.
If nothing proprietary, you can also substitute brands. For instance, Fronius GT PV inverter could replace SMA. But SolarEdge has proprietary optimizers, so need same equipment to replace.

 

[DIYrich]

Sol-ark has Tigo optimizers integrated.

 

[zanydroid]

Sol-ark has Tigo optimizers integrated.

Not sure about this. I see compatibility letters countersigned by both companies for RSD-only but a lot of official workaround & workaround threads for using a CCA.

SolArk did recently change some stuff for their RSD transmitter, maybe to prepare for their own optimizers.

 

[k490]

regarding the hybrid inverters. Would it be recommended to purchase the xtended warranty for 20 years? I’ve been quoted for the solark 15 $1250.

Sol-Ark gives you 10-year standard warranty are they adding on another 20 years, or more likely it's concurrent. Your probably required to use factory warranty first. The first 10 years they don't even have to ever worry about paying out. Must be a good money maker for them selling them after 10 years they probably sell you an upgraded one now they are not even paying out full amount it cost selling you a replacement.

 

[zanydroid]

Well as a general rule if a capitalist company is selling you an extended warranty or insurance they expect to make a profit. Either directly on the actuarial tables or with some financial engineering layered on top.

If the warranty or insurance provides life changing level of protection against a catastrophic loss it’s an ok trade.

Otherwise it’s more for “peace of mind/mental health” and not financially rational (since you are on the money losing side unless the company messed up their math).

 

[Hedges]

Or, it is just a marketing angle, and there are reasons you'll never actually collect on the warranty.

I saw a tube of caulk with 50 year warranty. If it fails within that period (and water leak causes rot damage to your house), just send in the receipt and empty tube, company will send you a replacement tube at no cost.

Some equipment has labor included first couple of years, after that only parts not labor. Which could outweigh part value. Although if company has to ship parts they still lose.

 

[Jman99]

Hope everyone had a great day.

I was able to organize my three top quotes and would like to share it with the group.

If you could please give me your advice regarding:

1. Best options for me (best to worst).
2. Whether the equipment being used is recommended or if there’s anything you would change/substiitute/add?
3. Any other advice would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

All Three Quotes have the following included:

1. Pannels (27): Maple Leaf Solar - All Black Bifacial Solar Panel 570 W - W/N-Type Mono Cells - IP68 Junction Box and IP67 Mc4 Cable - 30 year warranty (27 Pannel)
2. Tigo Cloud Connect Advanced (CCA) Kit
3. Optimizers (27): Tigo TS4-A-O Optimizer Module
4. Schletter-Rapid16 Middle Clamp, 30-40 mm - Mid Clamp
5. TRIC-SunScreen 6” Wire Mesh
6. TRIC-SunScreener Wire Mesh Clip, Steel Grey

Included in the price:

1. Labour
2. Extra material budget: $1200
3. P.Eng Stamp
4. Hydro connection
5. City permit application fee

Option 1: PRICE (Tax in): $43,070

1. Inverter: Sol Ark 15 K Hybrid Inverter - All In One Inverter with Max PV of 19000W
2. Battery: Maple Leaf-14.34 KW 48V 280A: MOOSE Wall-Mounted LiFePO4 All Weather Energy Storage Lithium Batteries W/LCD touchscreen, Heater and Cables included-UL1973-UL9540A, UL9540 with LuxPowerTeck Inverter

Option 2: PRICE (Tax in): $40,000

1. Inverter: Sol Ark 15 K Hybrid Inverter - All In One Inverter with Max PV of 19000W
2. Battery (2): SOK Battery | 100Ah 48v | UL 1973 & UL9540A Certified | User-Serviceable LiFePO4 Server Rack BatterySOK Battery | 100Ah 48v | UL 1973 Certified | User-Serviceable LiFePO4 Server Rack Battery

Option 3: PRICE (Tax in): $40,000

1. Inverter: LuxPower 18Kpv (LXP-LB-US 12k)
2. Battery: Maple Leaf-14.34 KW 48V 280A: MOOSE Wall-Mounted LiFePO4 All Weather Energy Storage Lithium Batteries W/LCD touchscreen, Heated