Sailboat batteries: EVE/CALB or Fortune/Winston?

[madmike]

I'll be installing LiFePO4 this summer to replace our tired out lead acid house batteries. The Fortune and Winston cells look nice because their packaging is a bit more rugged and seems like they might hold up better with the constant motion of a sailboat. Reading through the forum here, however, it seems like the "big blue boxes" of the EVE or CALB cells are more popular. Does anyone have experience on whether the Fortune or Winston cells are actually worth the higher cost?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Odom1957]

"Constant motion of a sailboat"

I don't know what kind of sailing you do, but I try to keep the keel in the water. I have been in some really nasty shit sailing, and never experienced enough un and down motion to dislodge any batteries.

Use a thick closed cell foam damper under the cells and compress them properly together (with protection between the cells) and the batteries can be held down with a simple unistrut brace over the top. They won't go anywhere.

We regularly install lithium in the front of center console boats that get airtime and have never had any issues, so a sailboat would be a cakewalk for any cell.

Buy whatever cells you want, but protect them properly and you'll never have any issues.

Also note, you need to be very careful in how you charge them. Alternators, especially factory ones, do not like lithium.

 

[mikefitz]

If your sailing involves crossing oceans go for the hard plastic cased cells, Winston would be my prefered choice. Build multiple batteries each with a bms for redundancy. Use 100 or 150 Ah cells for a more robust package.
Keep lead acid for engine charging.
Research suitable charging techniques from the alternator.

Mike

 

[TimE]

It doesn't matter what cells you choose. How you compress them and how you restrain the compressed pack is more relevant.
When i recently built my battery, I used CATL cells as they have a great reputation. Largest lifepo4 cell manufacturer in the world.
I installed them in 1" nylon compression plates that sit proud of the top of the cell terminals. I installed s/s eyebolts through the floor of the battery box and we made up jackstay webbing straps to hold down the battery. It works perfectly with no metal parts that risk a short on the cell terminals.
The battery pack has only run through 8 full cycles so far but the pack is perfectly balanced and needs little activity from the active balancer.

 

[BobR]

I'll be installing LiFePO4 this summer to replace our tired out lead acid house batteries. The Fortune and Winston cells look nice because their packaging is a bit more rugged and seems like they might hold up better with the constant motion of a sailboat. Reading through the forum here, however, it seems like the "big blue boxes" of the EVE or CALB cells are more popular. Does anyone have experience on whether the Fortune or Winston cells are actually worth the higher cost?

Thanks in advance.

Large cells have been known to be damaged on ocean voyaging vessels by violent motion. Smaller cells have smaller internal mass.

If you have ever been caught in a storm and your boat is falling off of waves you can understand the inertia of a larger mass over the inertia of the smaller mass in smaller batteries.

 

[TimE]

Large cells have been known to be damaged on ocean voyaging vessels by violent motion. Smaller cells have smaller internal mass.

If you have ever been caught in a storm and your boat is falling off of waves you can understand the inertia of a larger mass over the inertia of the smaller mass in smaller batteries.

The details of cell failure in a storm have never been forensically analysed, as far as I know. Insecure battery bank, poor compression or just generally poor installation could all cause a pack failure under violent motion. Lots of lithium is installed in drop in format in power boats slamming in big seas on a regular basis. It hasn't formed a section on this forum telling us of cell failure

 

[BobR]

You are free to do what you like. I tend to take the advice of people who have more experience than I have.

Here is an excerpt from: https://nordkyndesign.com/assembling-a-lithium-iron-phosphate-marine-house-bank/

"Single 3.2V prismatic LiFePO4 cells can nowadays be obtained in huge capacity, as high as 10000Ah. Commonly available cells range between 40Ah and maybe 1000Ah. It should be pointed out that the larger sizes are intended for stationary applications where no accelerations, vibrations or shocks are ever experienced.


A sales manager at Sinopoly I was talking to was adamant about using 100Ah or 200Ah cells only for assembling marine battery banks, with 100Ah being preferred and 200Ah acceptable. Large cells simply don’t have the structural strength-to-weight ratio required to be taken to sea on board small crafts and would exhibit shortened life due to internal mechanical damage arising from on-going vessel motion. It is common sense: as a cell becomes larger, its internal weight increases much faster than the rigidity and surface area of the casing and the casing is all what holds the plates together in a prismatic cell."

 

[BobR]

I am assembling my batteries using 230ah cells.
My usage will be mostly coastal cruising / bahamas in a powerboat.

 

[TimE]

You are free to do what you like. I tend to take the advice of people who have more experience than I have.

Here is an excerpt from: https://nordkyndesign.com/assembling-a-lithium-iron-phosphate-marine-house-bank/

"Single 3.2V prismatic LiFePO4 cells can nowadays be obtained in huge capacity, as high as 10000Ah. Commonly available cells range between 40Ah and maybe 1000Ah. It should be pointed out that the larger sizes are intended for stationary applications where no accelerations, vibrations or shocks are ever experienced.


A sales manager at Sinopoly I was talking to was adamant about using 100Ah or 200Ah cells only for assembling marine battery banks, with 100Ah being preferred and 200Ah acceptable. Large cells simply don’t have the structural strength-to-weight ratio required to be taken to sea on board small crafts and would exhibit shortened life due to internal mechanical damage arising from on-going vessel motion. It is common sense: as a cell becomes larger, its internal weight increases much faster than the rigidity and surface area of the casing and the casing is all what holds the plates together in a prismatic cell."

Drop in batteries are probably at more risk than a well constructed DIY battery. Drop in cells don't get compressed. Pouch cells are probably worse for cell damage than prismatic cells. We have 280Ah cells in compression, well fixed down with eyebolts and jackstay webbing. They don't move. 41,000lb sailing yacht that has a gentle motion compared to a powerboat slamming into waves.
There are many people cruising around the world with lithium, crossing oceans and dealing with bad weather. I haven't heard and reports of cell failure in a storm

 

[jdege]

I am assembling my batteries using 230ah cells.
My usage will be mostly coastal cruising / bahamas in a powerboat.

I'm thinking that a fast powerboat will encounter far higher shock loads than a sailboat, regardless of whether coastal or open ocean.

 

[BobR]

I'm thinking that a fast powerboat will encounter far higher shock loads than a sailboat, regardless of whether coastal or open ocean.

My power boat is not fast; Hull speed= 9.4 mph, top speed= 20mph, economical cruising speed= 8.5mph

Not fast but for those used to sail boats; being able to maintain over 8mph 24/7 it's great.

 

[wholybee]

I'm thinking that a fast powerboat will encounter far higher shock loads than a sailboat, regardless of whether coastal or open ocean.

Installed in an ocean going sailboat, LFP needs to be installed such that they will survive a rollover. A very rare occurrence, but you don't want to be dealing with broken battery bits floating in the cabin with everything else going on. A wave breaking on the beam of a sailboat feels like getting hit by a truck. It can be quite violent. Although it isn't nearly as common as the shock in a fast powerboat, it is at least as jolting, if not more so. An ocean sailor should expect that to happen at least once or twice during an ocean crossing.

Either EVE/Calb/Fortune/Winston would be fine as long as they are installed properly, and you have high quality Grade A cells. The quality and source of the cells is hugely important, and issues likely won't show up for months or years. It can be difficult to know if you are really getting grade A as many resellers lie about their stock. Winston cells have been around a very long time, and early adopters of Lithium on boats have Winston cells approaching 15 years old that still test as new with full capacity. The others may or may not last as long or longer. The history just isn't there to know for sure.

 

[jdege]

Although it isn't nearly as common as the shock in a fast powerboat, it is at least as jolting, if not more so. An ocean sailor should expect that to happen at least once or twice during an ocean crossing.

Maybe I've been watching too many YouTube videos of Haulover Inlet...

 

[TimE]

Maybe I've been watching too many YouTube videos of Haulover Inlet...

It might depend on the sailing boat. We have done several Atlantic crossings in our bluewater boat. We get more jolts in the tender going to the beach?

 

[wholybee]

I have circumnavigated, about 30,000 ocean miles. I would say that on average every 2000-4000 miles or so I get hit by a "rouge" wave that is quite jolting. Even in fairly moderate following seas. Many passages have nothing, and a few passages it happens a couple times. I have been "knocked down" twice in that 30,000 miles, where the boat is suddenly knocked down as far as the spreaders hitting (or very nearly hitting) the water.

It would be very easy to make a few crossings and not have any of that happen. But that type of jolt is something a blue water boat and LFP install on a blue water boat needs the be able to take in stride. As a general rule, yes launching a tender from the beach and the ride to the boat is more jolting. It's the lessor common events on a sailboat you need to worry about.

Just make sure the cells can't move-at all.

PS.
My sailboat is 20,000 lbs. Half the displacement as Tim's, but still very typical of a blue water boat.

 

[jdege]

 

[Sabre36]

My 400Ah Winston cells turned 14 on May 9th.. Zero complaints

 

[TimE]

I have circumnavigated, about 30,000 ocean miles. I would say that on average every 2000-4000 miles or so I get hit by a "rouge" wave that is quite jolting. Even in fairly moderate following seas. Many passages have nothing, and a few passages it happens a couple times. I have been "knocked down" twice in that 30,000 miles, where the boat is suddenly knocked down as far as the spreaders hitting (or very nearly hitting) the water.

It would be very easy to make a few crossings and not have any of that happen. But that type of jolt is something a blue water boat and LFP install on a blue water boat needs the be able to take in stride. As a general rule, yes launching a tender from the beach and the ride to the boat is more jolting. It's the lessor common events on a sailboat you need to worry about.

Just make sure the cells can't move-at all.

PS.
My sailboat is 20,000 lbs. Half the displacement as Tim's, but still very typical of a blue water boat.

hmm, my 44ft boat is 41,000lbs fin and skeg, 7 ft 2 inch draft. we have done 37,000nm in here in the last 11 years with 3 Atlantic crossings. We dont get jolted by waves. We have never been knocked down.

 

[madmike]

The quality and source of the cells is hugely important, and issues likely won't show up for months or years. It can be difficult to know if you are really getting grade A as many resellers lie about their stock.

Does anybody know whether EEL Battery is one of the reliable sources?

Thanks, everyone, for the input. It's helpful. The point about larger cells having more internal inertia is helpful. "Most of the time sailing is more gentle than speed boats, but once in a while you hit a big wave," sounds about right to me.

 

[me3]

Advantage of Winston is you can build a 4s or 8s or 16s pack in the capacity you want, no parallel issues.
Most others need parallel.