Schneider XW vs Sol-Ark

[niktak11]

Ok so your getting that 96.5% efficiency throughout the day as long as the battery isn’t being used.

well I just meant that since you were using grid power for part of the day then you were paying for power everyday so the money you are saving thru the inverter efficiency is put back into paying for power. Not that a different inverter could change that.. can only go so far with the kWh battery available

Right but 96.5% efficiency wouldn’t happen for everyone as often. If the array was smaller than your due to the homes loads being less or homes daily loads not being high enough to justify a large array like yours, then the excess not used by low amount of loads during the day would go into the battery to be used more frequently throughout the day and night. The user could have a large enough battery to keep their low amount of loads running 24/7 which would lower the efficiency due to using the battery more often however they would never be using grid power to make up for the lack of using pv to load/inverter as much as you do..

So what is that 7% for time of use about on the above chart?
The 12k is already much larger than I need. I atm use two 2kw grid tie inverters that cover almost all of my loads 24/7.. also was thinking more about getting the Schneider because I already have an Outback fm80 chargecontroller which I like and want to continue to use. Also that would save me a good bit of change not needing to buy a charge controller for Schneider or pay for a SolArk to have an integrated charge controller.. I currently only have an 80amp controller which is perfect for my situation, definitely wouldn’t need 275A. If a rare power outage occurs or an apocalypse I will be grateful to have a small critical loads panel running off my small 4kw offgrid inverter charging my 18.6kwh battery with 80amps..

thanks for taking the time to converse. I do clearly now understand why the SolArk is more efficient than the Schneider. However I am still trying to figure out that 7% and 11% stuff from the chart..

7% is the total loss of going from PV to battery and to the AC out later. I'm not sure why they call that time of use. In my mind "time of use loss" would better describe going from AC to battery and back to AC. That would be about 8.3% for the 12k and 15.4% for the XW Pro.

 

[Cheap 4-life]

7% is the total loss of going from PV to battery and to the AC out later. I'm not sure why they call that time of use. In my mind "time of use loss" would better describe going from AC to battery and back to AC. That would be about 8.3% for the 12k and 15.4% for the XW Pro.

Maybe TOU they are referring to is when the battery is being used during designated times.. Is it 7% off of 100%? What would be 8.3%?

 

[Solar Guppy]

If you use the chart numbers, and I'm not sure how they are derived data wise, the Sol-Ark is 3 to 5% more efficient, 3% for inverter conversion of battery energy and 5% for having external charge controllers on any none AIO inverter.

One thing I see is the chart compares different sized interverters at 65% output, and I don't know what was used for measurement equipment or this is a datasheet exercise but seems ballpark enough for me and part of my living was at one time using lab quality inverters to measure these very things.

Now put a auto-transformer on the Sol-Ark so they are equivalent functionality for phase overload and you will be 2% difference for battery to inverter.

NEC for home wiring allows 3% losses from panel to load, just to put things into prospective.

One can do what I did and replace my old York heat-pump with a ducted mini-split, for a cost less than the smallest Sol-Ark on the market and save 50% on that energy load, or get into discussions on some therocial difference of 2% between brands

What the older products have is a proven track record, what is that worth? My experience with newcomers is best case there is a few years of teething to get to the same stability of something like the XW. but there is a far greater chance you own an orphan that never works to the marketing hype.

Case and point, my current Solis 5G's have a bunch of quirks which I spent a few months working around and had to pull teeth with Solis and BYD to fix some critical bugs I found ( Chinese Companies ). Both will be orphans as the Battery Box HV has already been replaced with the HVL and Solis has announced at trade shows a replacement for the 5G ( S6 ) but this is my hobby time and likely to be replaced with something new, thanks to the nice 30% tax savings. For offgrid, I'd would go with the XW, I had one before, was actually one of the first to work on AC Coupling ( 2007/8 ) and the just plain work. I won't fault anyone for making another choice like the Sol-Ark.

So make a prioritized list of requirements and then see what is most important for your situation, there is NO one is better than the other, it is always a compromise of needs & costs.

 

[robby]

Ok so your getting that 96.5% efficiency throughout the day as long as the battery isn’t being used.

Yes

well I just meant that since you were using grid power for part of the day then you were paying for power everyday so the money you are saving thru the inverter efficiency is put back into paying for power. Not that a different inverter could change that.. can only go so far with the kWh battery available

It helps and I have found through my Data collection that all of these things can really add up in reducing a monthly bill. From Inverter efficiency, Heat De-Rating of the panels to Idle current etc.

Right but 96.5% efficiency wouldn’t happen for everyone as often. If the array was smaller than your due to the homes loads being less or homes daily loads not being high enough to justify a large array like yours, then the excess not used by low amount of loads during the day would go into the battery to be used more frequently throughout the day and night. The user could have a large enough battery to keep their low amount of loads running 24/7 which would lower the efficiency due to using the battery more often however they would never be using grid power to make up for the lack of using pv to load/inverter as much as you do..

Yes it would be nice to cut down on my Grid usage but when I look at the cost of 10KWh more of Teir1 batteries it just makes no sense in terms of ROI. My current bill is something i can live with for now, but who knows what the future will bring with all the crazy stuff happening globally.

So what is that 7% for time of use about on the above chart?

Not sure, I would have to ask Sol-Ark.

The 12k is already much larger than I need. I atm use two 2kw grid tie inverters that cover almost all of my loads 24/7.. also was thinking more about getting the Schneider because I already have an Outback fm80 chargecontroller which I like and want to continue to use. Also that would save me a good bit of change not needing to buy a charge controller for Schneider or pay for a SolArk to have an integrated charge controller.. I currently only have an 80amp controller which is perfect for my situation, definitely wouldn’t need 275A. If a rare power outage occurs or an apocalypse I will be grateful to have a small critical loads panel running off my small 4kw offgrid inverter charging my 18.6kwh battery with 80amps..

You sized the system for your needs and that is the right way to do it.
I sized my Panels and Inverter for my needs but always knew that buying all the Batteries in one shot was just not going to fly with the wife. I started with 10.8KWh and in 12 months I am up to 26KWh. Each new battery at this point offers diminishing returns for me. I can easily go 24/7 after a major power outage by just turning off a few things and going from 80% DOD to 90% DOD. LOL I know "Will" would say go to 100%

thanks for taking the time to converse. I do clearly now understand why the SolArk is more efficient than the Schneider. However I am still trying to figure out that 7% and 11% stuff from the chart..

I will try to find out or maybe @niktak11 can confirm if his idea is correct via Sol-Ark.
Your welcome, this has been a very good discussion .

 

[robby]

One thing I see is the chart compares different sized interverters at 65% output, and I don't know what was used for measurement equipment or this is a datasheet exercise but seems ballpark enough for me and part of my living was at one time using lab quality inverters to measure these very things.

Because Inverter efficiency cannot be quantified as a specific number without a corresponding output percentage.
It changes based on the Load it is handling.

Edit: Fluke and some other companies have Meters that can measure that by using clamp probes and voltage probes hooked to the PV array and the loaded Inverters output. You can then vary the Load and create a curve.

It's safe to assume that better efficiency at 65% on a higher wattage Inverter is a lot better to have than on a lower wattage Inverter. One assumption being that you actually use that kind of power! If your not using that kind of power than an overly big inverter would be a disadvantage. If this was an Inverter being built for a Satellite in space you would most certainly want the power curve to match up with your loads at the peak point.

Here is a Generic Example:

 

[niktak11]

Maybe TOU they are referring to is when the battery is being used during designated times.. Is it 7% off of 100%? What would be 8.3%?

7% of the initial input power wasted

 

[Koldsimer]

Question regarding efficiency. Is the idle consumption of an inverter factored into the overall efficiency percentage? Or is a completely separate measurement?

 

[robby]

Question regarding efficiency. Is the idle consumption of an inverter factored into the overall efficiency percentage? Or is a completely separate measurement?

It would be a separate number.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Question regarding efficiency. Is the idle consumption of an inverter factored into the overall efficiency percentage? Or is a completely separate measurement?

Its not factored in because as soon as you get off of "idle" (0 watts) it is now considered efficiency. They are 2 seperate values.

 

[nokiasixteth]

Been waiting for this video to come out after this individual kinda bashed Schneider for glitchy software at one of his customers house. This XW Pro really seems like a beast. Fort those that have Schneider equipment in this forum, if you had to re-do your setup would you choose Schneider again?

I use the smaller little bro to the xw pro i have the sw 4048 & it kicks over my 1 hp well pump with ease . These systems are excellent products only wish is that you could still stack the sws which Schneider says isn't available any more. So the xw is on the to buy list later on. I will just put it closer to the export meter on the outside .

 

[nokiasixteth]

So in a grid failure situation, can it still run those loads? I’d be looking to use it for well pump, few led light circuits and internet? When/If everything hits the fan, goal is to get out of the city and to our cabin as quick as possible. Battery conservation will be a must and be able to have the well provide water.

If your home doesnt have a high power usage you can use the Schneider sw. Mine does a well pump fine along with the heat pump. Although it does limit you being its max is 3800 watts . If you want to go real cheap dig a 4 inch well & use a dc powered submersible pump this way you can have a dedicated cheap/ easily sourced system if it ever breaks being they are so many flooding the market . I think i bought mine for around 300 bucks. Just mind candy for you.

 

[ChrisG]

If your home doesnt have a high power usage you can use the Schneider sw. Mine does a well pump fine along with the heat pump. Although it does limit you being its max is 3800 watts . If you want to go real cheap dig a 4 inch well & use a dc powered submersible pump this way you can have a dedicated cheap/ easily sourced system if it ever breaks being they are so many flooding the market . I think i bought mine for around 300 bucks. Just mind candy for you.

Thanks for info @nokiasixteth. I’m working on DIY solar at two locations. Primary home has no surge loads (outside of AC which is not a critical load). My cabin with the 600ft deep
Well Pump is the concerning one. Can you measure current inrush with a clamp meter on your pump? I’m at 9000w for 1 second before it settles down.

 

[nokiasixteth]

Yep I don't have a clamp meter just a cheap old multimeter and I have the solar edge that has two clamp cts on it but I have it permineyly inside the breaker panel .I'll have to see if the multi meter can catch an inrush current to it . Schneider says the SW is 7000 watts for 5 secs so I'm sure it's less than that . My well is 374 ft with a static water level of 38(just below suction level unfortunately). 600 ft is some kinda deep to hit water . Unless that's the total depth maybe..

 

[ChrisG]

Yep I don't have a clamp meter just a cheap old multimeter and I have the solar edge that has two clamp cts on it but I have it permineyly inside the breaker panel .I'll have to see if the multi meter can catch an inrush current to it . Schneider says the SW is 7000 watts for 5 secs so I'm sure it's less than that . My well is 374 ft with a static water level of 38(just below suction level unfortunately). 600 ft is some kinda deep to hit water . Unless that's the total depth maybe..

600 ft is the depth of the well pump itself. Cabin on a mountain peak in Eastern TN.

 

[nokiasixteth]

Explains the water depth . I've never dug in the mountains before imagine you would have to hammer drill there & hit water fractures . We like going to Tn Sevierville Gatlinburg areas on vacas . Pretty areas .

 

[JBertok]

I am running dual XW Pros with the entire house on the load side of the inverters through a transfer switch and sub-panel. That sub-panel includes a 4.5 ton central air conditioner, a 2 ton garage AC unit, and another 2.5 tons combined from 3 individual bedroom AC units. The XWs can start and run them all, the washer and dryer (gas), and the toaster and coffee maker all at the same time completely from DC. I've tried to overload them to see what happens, and not succeeded. Just this week, however, I did install a Micro-Air EasyStart on the central AC. It brought the startup amps down from 57 to 35. I am curious if anyone has tried one of those with a well pump. They could reduce the startup surge draw of any induction A/C motor with a startup winding, in theory. I guess the well pump would need to have a surface-mounted capacitor since its wiring ties in between the motor and the capacitor.
Schneider/Xantrex/Trace have always handled surge loads well with their giant low-frequency transformers, but the XW in particular is more robust than anything I've seen.

 

[pvdude]

I also considered a VFD (like the Micro-Air EasyStart) for the well pump, but research found that the pump must be designed for a VFD:

From a pump forum:
"Many submersibles use hydrostatic pressure for lubricating the bearings which require a minimum pump output immediately in order to perform.
If you were to start out with too low of current (again on a RVSS or RVAT starter), you may cause incremental damage to the bearings every time you start.
The equivalent issue when using a VFD for submersibles is minimum speed and the amount of time you must not exceed in getting there. It could be that from their experiences, they think that even with a VFD you will need to apply that much current to achieve an acceleration rate fast enough to satisfy their design requirements. "

My pump is a Goulds, 41 LRA. The XW Pro inverters start is easily, so I did not pursue a VFD.
If I had to program the VFD for a very fast current ramp-up, so as to protect the bearings, not sure what would be gained by having the VFD.

You can probably get the manufacturer of your pump to advise as to whether or not it is VFD compatible.

I also put a Micro-Air EasyStart on the heat pump compressor, it dropped the LRA from 132A to 38A - fairly amazing!!!

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

I doubt Deye/solark can do this

 

[Lt.Dan]

I dont think the sol ark will do that because its obviously not rated for that, as its a transformerless model, but id be curious in testing mine against the manual as well. That would be cool.

I've got a few space heaters, a decent 120v air compressor, and a large 50a AC TIG welder that I can load it with.

 

[timselectric]

I dont think the sol ark will do that because its obviously not rated for that, as its a transformerless model, but id be curious in testing mine against the manual as well. That would be cool.

I've got a few space heaters, a decent 120v air compressor, and a large 50a AC TIG welder that I can load it with.

It can't do it. It's been tested before.
But, have fun anyway. I enjoy testing limits, even if I know what the results will be.