Super capacitors are a horrible choice for solar. Change my mind

[grizzzman]

Ya but they cost more

 

[b.james]

Well, they would make a great jump starter! 2.7 volt 500 f supercapacitor bank cost can be 35.00 with a balance board or DIY for 18.00 ()If you don't mind waiting for parts) And 27.00 with a balance board. Charge for a minute( or less ) And your ready to go!

Having tried it, I was not impressed I got my supercaps from china . Could not afford the Maxwell types. About half of the caps were good the others duds after a time. They are still sitting there looking for a use.

From a theoretical standpoint, batteries will always be limited because you must have one atom/molecule paired with each electron you use: If you use 100 electrons you have to move 100 atoms/molecules.

Hey ? I don't understand this ,do you ?
The electrons flow from Neg through the circuit to Pos . Yep OK
Inside the battery IONS flow through the electrolyte to the neg plate I think .
So ions are molecules . I have never thought of an ion being an atom or a molecule but I guess you are right.

What about these paired or split electrons where one goes off in one direction 1000km and the other in the opposite direction 1000Km and they both communicate or know what each other is doing ,does this have any possible future application to batteries?

There are actually commercial jump starters based on capacitors already. There's one handy device that you keep in your boot (trunk). If you find your battery is low enough that it won't start the car but not completely dead, there is still a lot of energy stored there. The battery just isn't capable of delivering the big whack to crank the motor over. The starter pack slowly draws power out of the battery to get the best out of it, and can then dump it all back out in short order to allow you to start the car and be on your way.

Check out bigclive.com .His latest vid is on a supposed car enhancement device based on caps . When he opened them up 4 caps were frauds and only 1 did anything .
I cant fathom why they would use dry nonfunctioning capacitors all fully manufactured but no liquid inside so they tested open circuit.

 

[Jcain]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Lower round trip losses, higher C rates, longer life, far longer number of cycles, greater thermal range, easier to recycle don't seem all that marginal. Although for solar I'll give you super high C-Rates aren't all that important, and 80 vs 100% DOD isn't that big.


Watts is watts; put a voltage regulator on it and call it done.


Most small value capacitors are simple sandwiches of conductor and insulator and when the voltage exceeds the dielectric strength of the insulation, they short out and burn, crack, pop, open, or smoke. Explosions are rare for these. Popping open is more likely.

Video of exploding capacitors:

So, design plays a big role in the risk and if they get a UL listing I'd feel confident they were at least as safe as the other junk in my house.
See also:

1. How to Explode a Capacitor, note the design to prevent unforgettable explosions.
2. Supercapacitor batteries are safer than ordinary batteries when mistreated. While batteries are known to explode due to excessive heating when ... ref
3. FastCAP designed its first-generation product, for the oil and gas market: a high-temperature ultracapacitor that could withstand temperatures of 150 C and posed no risk of explosion when crushed or damage ref

Not that someone won't find a way to explode a supercapictor someday; there are very innovative and determined people out there.

I can promise you from first hand experience, watching a 200kvar capacitor explode is rather destructive.

 

[svetz]

I can promise you from first hand experience, watching a 200kvar capacitor explode is rather destructive.

So is a gallon of gasoline, Even a LiFePO4 is subject to thermal runaway if it gets hot enough because all lithium chemistry is exothermic on discharge.

As to safety... which has more youtube videos of them being blown up? Lithium batteries or capacitors? But I remember reading something (sorry no reference) that there were fewer eBike accidents from batteries than there were cars from gasoline. So a danger yes, but overall safer.

But, just as it would be unfair to lump LiFePO4 into the same safety bucket as other lithium batteries it's probably unfair to lump all capacitors together. Capacitors explode when the dialectic breaks down from over-voltage. Over-voltage to an LA produces hydrogen gas which is dangerous, and over-voltage to a lithium battery can cause it to fail dramatically. Yes there's always some risk, and design like the notches in the top of those little caps or the fusing on cells can help to reduce them and overall make us safer.

So, other than size and cost which are just deal-breakers; I like 'em for solar and even more for cars!

Update: This was interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

 

[offgriddle]

Having tried it, I was not impressed I got my supercaps from china . Could not afford the Maxwell types. About half of the caps were good the others duds after a time. They are still sitting there looking for a use.

Hey ? I don't understand this ,do you ?
The electrons flow from Neg through the circuit to Pos . Yep OK
Inside the battery IONS flow through the electrolyte to the neg plate I think .
So ions are molecules . I have never thought of an ion being an atom or a molecule but I guess you are right.

What about these paired or split electrons where one goes off in one direction 1000km and the other in the opposite direction 1000Km and they both communicate or know what each other is doing ,does this have any possible future application to batteries?


Check out bigclive.com .His latest vid is on a supposed car enhancement device based on caps . When he opened them up 4 caps were frauds and only 1 did anything .
I cant fathom why they would use dry nonfunctioning capacitors all fully manufactured but no liquid inside so they tested open circuit.

Yet another fraudulent device courtesy of the good folks from the Pacific rim, with an assist from equally unscrupulous, or unknowing, marketing outlets around the globe. Maybe the concept could have some merit in situations where a vehicle battery is weak and a momentary jolt of voltage immediately apre engine start, could provide a boost which would keep the half dozen or so computers in the average vehicle operating properly untill the alternator & battery comes up to full voltage output, or, in times when excessive demand in placed upon the electronic ignition system and it needs a little voltage boost from a capacitive discharge device properly programmed to recognize such an event. No matter, electrolytic capacitors that are missing their electrolyte are bogus components indeed! ?

 

[offgriddle]

Super capacitors have a ways to go yet Will before they can provide an alternative to our existing super capacitors, AKA batteries! ~ Regarding the Mega Raizin fuel capacitor video, yet another fraudulent device courtesy of the good folks from the Pacific rim, with an assist from equally unscrupulous, or unknowing, marketing outlets around the globe. Maybe the concept could have some merit in situations where a vehicle battery is weak and a momentary jolt of voltage immediately apre engine start, could provide a boost which would keep the half dozen or so computers in the average vehicle operating properly untill the alternator & battery comes up to full voltage output, or, in times when excessive demand is placed upon the electronic ignition system and it needs a little voltage boost from a capacitive discharge device properly programmed to recognize such an event, (IE, once upon a time I had a 100 horsepower outbound motor on a boat that would run without a battery but under full throttle demand, the motor's electricial system by itself could not provide enough current to power it's electronic ignition system). No matter, electrolytic capacitors that are missing their electrolyte are bogus components indeed! As always in such matters, the word of the day is BUYER BEWARE! ?

 

[billw]

I'm looking at purchasing two Sirius super capacitors and was hoping to find some first hand info on them here. They are not as expensive as claimed here and seem to be ideal for my off-grid application (Outback 3048T). My FLA batteries only lasted 4 years and by all accounts these will last longer than me. Any first hand experience is greatly appreciated.

 

[billw]

So is a gallon of gasoline, Even a LiFePO4 is subject to thermal runaway if it gets hot enough because all lithium chemistry is exothermic on discharge.

As to safety... which has more youtube videos of them being blown up? Lithium batteries or capacitors? But I remember reading something (sorry no reference) that there were fewer eBike accidents from batteries than there were cars from gasoline. So a danger yes, but overall safer.

But, just as it would be unfair to lump LiFePO4 into the same safety bucket as other lithium batteries it's probably unfair to lump all capacitors together. Capacitors explode when the dialectic breaks down from over-voltage. Over-voltage to an LA produces hydrogen gas which is dangerous, and over-voltage to a lithium battery can cause it to fail dramatically. Yes there's always some risk, and design like the notches in the top of those little caps or the fusing on cells can help to reduce them and overall make us safer.

So, other than size and cost which are just deal-breakers; I like 'em for solar and even more for cars!

Update: This was interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

My cost for two 3.55kwh is $5600. I can't find any lithium batteries cheaper.

 

[billw]

A "super capacitor" is a horrible choice for solar energy storage because:

- Horrible energy and volumetric density.

- The price per kwh is outrageous. Super capacitors make lithium batteries look cheap.

- Cycle life are great, but just like LTO, you need to factor in calendar aging. And solar batteries only need to be cycled once a day, so it is pretty pointless to have 1 million plus charge cycles when calendar aging will kill your pack long before cycle life is reached.

- Discharge and charge rate are amazing, but guess what?! Any normal, off the shelf lead acid or lithium battery charge and discharge rate will support loads and required charge rate in a properly designed system. No reason to get excited unless you have a tiny battery system.

Capacitors are great as a buffer for reducing noise in a circuit or pushing surges with a small battery. That's about it.

What I want to know is why so many people online are obsessed with them. They are great for specific applications, but nothing to get excited about. Can someone change my mind? Am I missing something?

Don't know if you'll see this, but I think things may have changed.

 

[cinergi]

My cost for two 3.55kwh is $5600. I can't find any lithium batteries cheaper.

what? 6 SoK 12v 100ah (7.68kwh) LFP batteries is $3,400.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I use them to power my intergalactic proton phaser.

I use mine to power my flux capacitor. It’s the only way I know to harness a lightning strike with 100% efficiency.

 

[billw]

what? 6 SoK 12v 100ah (7.68kwh) LFP batteries is $3,400.

what? 6 SoK 12v 100ah (7.68kwh) LFP batteries is $3,400.

I priced 48 volt lithium batteries as I am hoping for a simple replacement for my FLA bank. Even with the 12 volt SOKs when total cycles are compared it seems like the super capacitors are considerably more cost effective? Supposedly they also don't need tinkering with (like lithium and FLA) and you can add on at anytime without worries about cell degradation. I'm researching the alternatives as FLA is definitely not cost effective (I do know this from first hand experience).

 

[MattiFin]

My cost for two 3.55kwh is $5600. I can't find any lithium batteries cheaper.

Are you referring to Kilowatt Labs "Super-Capacitors"?

In short I'd call them a scam:

Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale - Page 5 - AEVA Forums

Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs - Page 4

Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs - Page 4

www.eevblog.com

 

[MattiFin]

 

[donaldbitterman]

I think they have a number of great applications right now
1. Use them for surge current when devices start up for small/medium scale systems
2. For grid scale, they may have a good application for VAR and frequency support (i.e. use them as the shock absorbers/pressure boosters)

Technology is advancing rapidly, being able to quickly charge is an intriguing. I think that was the vaporware Faraday Future was promising on their EV that did not pan out.

 

[billw]

Are you referring to Kilowatt Labs "Super-Capacitors"?

In short I'd call them a scam:

Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale - Page 5 - AEVA Forums

Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs - Page 4

Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs - Page 4

www.eevblog.com

You seem to be certain of your conclusion from the photos taken. I saw the the photo of the LTO and of the Sirius board. What I did not see was the LTO logo on the Sirius board components. I know they look similar but I can't say that you are definitively correct in your conclusion. I'll research more and revisit.

 

[MattiFin]

You seem to be certain of your conclusion from the photos taken. I saw the the photo of the LTO and of the Sirius board. What I did not see was the LTO logo on the Sirius board components. I know they look similar but I can't say that you are definitively correct in your conclusion. I'll research more and revisit.

Discharge graph looks nothing like supercapacitor. Their patent also mentions lithium batteries...
22v low voltage discharge wouldn't be needed either with supercap only. Also very poor maximum charge/discharge current.

If this was supercapacitor-only it would have ground breaking energy density.

 

[Diysolar123]

[not being serious]
Suppose your only source of power must be solar.... and you're located in a deep and narrow valley , so narrow that sun only hits your roofs for 45 minutes per day! (I know, I'm almost talking about Mordor but... bear with me!).
You can add 10 times more panels to compensate for this, but you would be oversizing your charge controller so that it can manage and supply that great amount of Amps! also, your batteries should have a great C rating to be able to receive that supply.
Instead, you could add a capacitor bank that would be able to handle a great inrush current so that in the next hours, a smaller charge controller with cheaper batteries (I mean, less strict C ratings) would be sipping power from that capacitor bank without stressing the system.
Basically, I suggest using a capacitor bank as a buffer.

the assumption here is that somehow you will have "infinite" power during that 45minutes???

There is only so much power available (contrary to people that believe you put up 2 solar panels and it is a megawatt power plant).
As long as you can intake that power, the ability ingest "more" power is, well, pointless.
lifepo4 batteries can ingest quite a bit of power if available.
That is a real problem with electric car batteries; the amount of power they "could" ingest is insane. However, the entire electrical infrustructure is just not setup to deliver that level of power to anybody except industrial buildings.
Look at the tesla recharge sites; in my entire area there is not even one level 3 charger...and only two level 2 chargers within 50 miles.
So, battery packs "could" ingest 300+amps, but where would you get that much power? A 140kw solar farm would be huuuggggeeee..and thats for one tesla hehe

Now if your plan was to try and back up to 10kilovolt power lines and steal as much power as possible as quick as possible..yea, use super caps and good luck with that.

When it comes to inrush there is also a limit to what an inverter can handle. Unlike startrek where you can suddenly route an entire antimatter reactor thru your communication network, devices really do not like huge changes in voltage or current. Even inverters themselves with large capacitor banks do not like current surge on startup (resistor precharge).

as others have pointed out, super caps do have uses but it is a very particular tool for specific problems.
Oh, and yes capacitors do fail.. spectacularly; and the bigger the cap the bigger the boom to the point you may create some ball lightning!

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Now if your plan was to try and back up to 10kilovolt power lines and steal as much power as possible as quick as possible..yea, use super caps and good luck with that.

??

When it comes to inrush there is also a limit to what an inverter can handle. Unlike startrek where you can suddenly route an entire antimatter reactor thru your communication network, devices really do not like huge changes in voltage or current. Even inverters themselves with large capacitor banks do not like current surge on startup (resistor precharge).

as others have pointed out, super caps do have uses but it is a very particular tool for specific problems.
Oh, and yes capacitors do fail.. spectacularly; and the bigger the cap the bigger the boom to the point you may create some ball lightning!

You mean to tell me ninjas had this technology long before the rest of the world knew what electricity was?

 

[JoeHam]

My cost for two 3.55kwh is $5600. I can't find any lithium batteries cheaper.

See here:

100 Ah LiFePO4 @ $1250 usd. 48v nominal

Let me start by saying that I have an affliction where I read almost every post on this forum. I then wander down various paths following up on what I find interesting. I recently came across this company on one of my rabbit hole trips and I cannot remember the thread where I found this...

diysolarforum.com

Over 10 kwh would have been $2500 then.

The new price is $1500 per 5.1 kwh battery or $3000 for over 10 kwh now.