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diy solar

Uneven discharge causing issues

karamazov

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Oct 13, 2022
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Title summarizes what's going on, my 2x parallel battery banks are discharging unevenly. Here's my setup:

Sol-Ark 15k Inverter
2x16s1 LifePO4 battery banks (EVE LF304), Overkill Solar 48v 100A BMS
Since there's no way to get the BMS to communicate with the inverter - or each other - this is an open loop system.

A little more context: I assembled these batteries at the beginning of this year when I brought my system online for the first time. I bought all the cells from a reputable supplier and they were all new. I was a bit lazy and decided to let the BMS do the balancing for me instead of doing a top balance myself - and to be fair, until recently it seems everything was working fine, and based on the data I've gathered from many charge/discharge cycles the capacity seems to be just fine. So this doesn't seem to be some issue with the way things were set up initially as it was all pretty smooth at the start. The Sol-Ark was remarkably accurate at "guessing" the SOC and was usually just about spot on with what the BMSs were reading. The only odd thing I did notice is that one battery always seems to discharge/charge at a higher current than the other. Although, given that this didn't cause any problems, I didn't pay too much attention to it. I have the inverter set to draw a maximum of 185A from the banks, which if roughly divided in half, should not trip the overcurrent protection.

Recently however I've been running into some issues that I wasn't seeing before. I initially noticed that the SOC indicated by my inverter would suddenly drop from whatever it was reading (somewhere above 50%, no consistent number) to 0% (or close to it).

First I did some digging and (thanks to some help from some folks here in another thread I posted), I identified a loose connection on one of the voltage leads that was causing one of the BMSs to constantly flip between over/undervoltage shutoff due to the faulty readings. I fixed this with a few turns of the wrench, thinking that I identified the problem.

However, this problem is still happening on a pretty frequent basis - and it's pretty annoying because once it happens, the inverter will not 'correct' the SOC until the next day - meaning if we have power bumps at night (which has been happening a lot), suddenly I don't have a battery backup because the inverter thinks the battery is drained.

tl;dr here is basically what I think is happening:
1. A large load starts drawing a lot of power in the evening or when there isn't a lot of solar power
2. One of the battery banks discharges at a higher enough rate than the other that it trips the overcurrent protection and cuts off that battery
3. as the inverter is now trying to power the same load from only one bank, it also overcurrents the second battery - on the inverter side this registers as a very sharp voltage drop
4. The inverter sees this and stops trying to use the batteries, and then proceed to set the SOC to 0%, thinking (understandably) that the batteries are depleted.
5. This SOC mismatch is not corrected until the next day, and I'm not exactly sure what causes the inverter to 're check' the SOC, but at some point it figures it out and the SOC will jump back up.

And now I'm seeing the benefit of a closed loop system...

Right now I see my options as:

1. Throw more battery banks at the problem so that it's just less likely to happen (as I was planning to expand anyway).
2. Replace my BMSs with ones that can handle 200A discharge (don't really want to do this as overall I like these ones and they come recommended by Will).
3. Take the batteries apart and top balance them, check for bad cells and re-shuffle them into the banks (would this even help though?).
4. Give up and buy prebuilt batteries that can operate in a closed loop with my inverter.

Can anyone recommend some troubleshooting steps to figure this out?
 
Balancing with only the passive BMS can take months. Unlikely they were ever truly top balanced.

Are your batteries paralleled with best practices, i.e., is the total cable length between battery 1 and the inverter identical to the total cable length between battery 2 and the inverter?

Have you triple checked each and every connection including cell bus bar interconnects for proper torque?

Do your batteries spend at least two hours/day at or above 55.2V?
 
Can you screenshot us your cell voltages once they are above 3.5V? What voltage are you charging up to? Also curious what kinds of loads your system sees.

If the cells in one pack are more out of balance than the other, it could reach "full" voltage before it is really full and that could exacerbate an uneven discharge.

If you find some bad runners, you can manually bleed some power off those high cells with an LED, DC/DC converter or resistor and get the battery closer to balanced and then maybe the BMS can clean up the rest without having to disassemble.
 
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Are your batteries paralleled with best practices, i.e., is the total cable length between battery 1 and the inverter identical to the total cable length between battery 2 and the inverter?
Yes.
Have you triple checked each and every connection including cell bus bar interconnects for proper torque?
I should do that...I might also test voltage drops along the path.
Do your batteries spend at least two hours/day at or above 55.2V?
Most days yes.
Can you screenshot us your cell voltages once they are above 3.5V? What voltage are you charging up to? Also curious what kinds of loads your system sees.

If the cells in one pack are more out of balance than the other, it could reach "full" voltage before it is really full and that could exacerbate an uneven discharge.

If you find some bad runners, you can manually bleed some power off those high cells with an LED, DC/DC converter or resistor and get the battery closer to balanced and then maybe the BMS can clean up the rest without having to disassemble.
I will post screenshots of each battery later today.

Bleeding off an individual cell is a good idea, I hadn't considered that.
 
Bleeding off an individual cell is a good idea, I hadn't considered that.
I got a 4.8v 700ma flashlight bulb, soldered wire to a little switch, to insulated alligator clips.
Wires long enough so that only the clips reach across the top of the pack.
Works great for fine tuning at the top of the charge while watching BMS voltages.
 
I'm of the opposite opinion. If one has the typical 30V/10A supply, one can individually charge each cell to elevated voltage. It completely eliminates any guess work with regards to time. If you run through a pack sitting in float and charge each cell to ~3.5-3.65V (starting at lowest and going to highest), you'll have a balanced pack in the end.

It also usually takes far less time and can get a pack balanced in a few hours of charging vs. constant trial and error with dealing with one runner after another. Discharging the high cells is a constant guessing game as to how long to discharge the cells.
 
I'm of the opposite opinion. If one has the typical 30V/10A supply, one can individually charge each cell to elevated voltage. It completely eliminates any guess work with regards to time. If you run through a pack sitting in float and charge each cell to ~3.5-3.65V (starting at lowest and going to highest), you'll have a balanced pack in the end.

It also usually takes far less time and can get a pack balanced in a few hours of charging vs. constant trial and error with dealing with one runner after another. Discharging the high cells is a constant guessing game as to how long to discharge the cells.
Don't know.
I do both simultaneously.
Just put 4 hours on the absorption clock to hold 3.5 or 3.55. usually only takes 20 minutes per pack to get under 10 millivolts.
 
Balancing with only the passive BMS can take months. Unlikely they were ever truly top balanced.
Yup! Tried it, and after 6-months my first 280Ah DIY pack "still" wasn't balanced.

I'm of the opposite opinion. If one has the typical 30V/10A supply, one can individually charge each cell to elevated voltage. It completely eliminates any guess work with regards to time. If you run through a pack sitting in float and charge each cell to ~3.5-3.65V (starting at lowest and going to highest), you'll have a balanced pack in the end.

It also usually takes far less time and can get a pack balanced in a few hours of charging vs. constant trial and error with dealing with one runner after another. Discharging the high cells is a constant guessing game as to how long to discharge the cells.
+1 this is the fastest way, for me, and I also tried auto bulbs on clamps, but the bench source is exact, and doesn't require baby sitting. Go do something else and come back to that cell reaching an exact voltage you have set.

One other note: you can bring up a low cell to it's next door neighbour's voltage (say 3.5v) then change the bench source to the total you want for two cells and clamp across - to + of the pair (say 7.2v) and they will come up together. I have done up to 4 adjacent cells with a bench source using this method. You need to check that they stay balanced to one another, sometimes one will drift and you go back to applying the bench source to just that one low cell.
 
I agree, if I had a way to charge a single cell that would have been quicker for me and probably doing both is even better. Next time I'll try a buck converter set to 3.6V and see how it does.
 
One other trick I used once:
If a single cell is out of sorts, say one cell is too high, but all the others are nearly identical voltage.
That one high cell may cut off the BMS too early, before there is time to get the balance back to normal.
Change the BMS start balance voltage to a lower settting like 3.2v to get the balancing started earlier, to have time to tame that one high cell.
Remember to change that setting back again after getting the cell back in line with the others. Worked for me without pulling/opening up the battery rack.
 
Thanks for the advice all! I think I am going to break out my DC power supply this weekend and just top up all 32 cells to see if that helps, probably check connections (and voltages across them) while I'm at it.
 
If you’re charging at high currents all the time right up to absorption then not spending hours in absorption, eventually a passive balancer is going to loose the battle. Even if you manage to work out a balance manually, you’ll be right back here again unless you make some changes. #1 Back off your current to extend your absorption/balance time. Option 2, Install an active balancer. A Heltec+voltage controller or a 4th gen Neey.
Option 3, Go with a JK bms.

I personally don’t like passive balancers because they can limit your capabilities and put undue stress on a battery by necessitating a lengthy high state of charge to balance. With my 3 JK’s my absorb time is typically between 15 and 25 minutes and my delta is always down to .003 before it releases to float.

Just tightening a loose connection may be a sign that you have other issues. I’m OCD when it comes to all my connections. 100% cleaned off oxides, antioxidant, and checked by internal resistance meter(before it’s in use) and/or under load, measured with a sensitive voltmeter across every-single-connection. Since I assume you have two identical batteries/cells and bms’s, purchased at the same time and if the cables are identical, you should have very close to nothing (less than .005 volts with 100 amp total or 50 amp per battery ) when you measure between batteries positive to positive or bms’s negative to negative under charge and discharge load. Measure across the bms’s and compare the value, they should should be the same or you have may have a bad FET in one.
 
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If you’re charging at high currents all the time right up to absorption then not spending hours in absorption, eventually a passive balancer is going to loose the battle. Even if you manage to work out a balance manually, you’ll be right back here again unless you make some changes. #1 Back off your current to extend your absorption/balance time. Option 2, Install an active balancer. A Heltec+voltage controller or a 4th gen Neey.
Option 3, Go with a JK bms.

I personally don’t like passive balancers because they can limit your capabilities and put undue stress on a battery by necessitating a lengthy high state of charge to balance. With my 3 JK’s my absorb time is typically between 15 and 25 minutes and my delta is always down to .003 before it releases to float.

Just tightening a loose connection may be a sign that you have other issues. I’m OCD when it comes to all my connections. 100% cleaned off oxides, antioxidant, and checked by internal resistance meter(before it’s in use) and/or under load, measured with a sensitive voltmeter across every-single-connection. Since I assume you have two identical batteries/cells and bms’s, purchased at the same time and if the cables are identical, you should have very close to nothing (less than .005 volts with 100 amp total or 50 amp per battery ) when you measure between batteries positive to positive or bms’s negative to negative under charge and discharge load. Measure across the bms’s and compare the value, they should should be the same or you have may have a bad FET in one.
Thanks, I was considering just replacing my BMSs with JKs since they can do 200A anyway, good to know that I wouldn't have to worry as much about balance in case I go that route.
 
The Heltec and the Neey have a more powerful balancer but the JK should be more than enough and eliminate all the extra leads. Just be sure all your battery terminals and busses are making excellent contact. Check between the post base and buss under load with a voltmeter. A ringer or two will stand out. Good luck
 
If you’re charging at high currents all the time right up to absorption then not spending hours in absorption, eventually a passive balancer is going to loose the battle....#1 Back off your current to extend your absorption/balance time.
I agree and addressed this by lowering the MPPT to 28.4V so it spends a little more time balancing each time the pack is reaching near full charge. Anything above 27.2V gives the BMS a chance to do a little balancing.

Normally it is balancing only during charging but you can temporarily change the setting so it balances while resting above 27.2V if the pack needs a lot of work. You can adjust the precision so it doesn't overwork the balancing, I use 0.015V, above 3.4V and charge balance on setting.
I personally don’t like passive balancers because they can limit your capabilities and put undue stress on a battery by necessitating a lengthy high state of charge to balance.
Hopefully the pack only needs slight balancing from time to time, once initially balanced. But if the pack got super deep discharged could need some rebalancing and in that case active would really come in handy.
 
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