UPS alternatives?

[archjeb]

Hi Folks.

Sorry if this is not in the correct forum category. Wasn't sure which one would be most appropriate; but Powerwalls seemed close

I'm wanting to replace some UPSs that I have at home. We lose power often; and I have a generator setup that runs on Natural Gas. But its manual. So I have to manually go out and turn the gas on, and switch over the interlock and select the circuits to transfer over.
It works great and gives me the flexibility to power the loads that are important for whatever is needed.

At any rate, the issue I have is we lose power enough during the winter that the UPSs don't seem to last more than a year or so. The APC, Cyberpower mix of UPSs the lead acid batteries just can't handle the abuse of this many power outages. The time it takes sometimes for me to go out and switch the power over, can drain the batteries significantly. And as you know, those little UPSs have very small batteries...I imagine it takes them past 20% discharge in just a few minutes and that is probably why the life on these are horrible for this use case.

What I'd like is a UPS that I can feed via a fused(for protection)...LiFePo4 battery. A single 100Ah LiFePo4 is going to have significantly more runtime than these dinky 9Ah batteries that are in these off the shelf UPSs from Costco, etc.

Even the higher end rack mounted Cyberpower seem to be focused on all Lead chemistry. Maybe its because they keep the batteries charged full...and LiFePo4 is the wrong chemistry for that? But on the other-hand...its seems crazy to use it for backup power when you are going to drain it so low that you damage the batteries.

What I'm looking for is about a min of 15minutes of full backup power @ 2000watts.

Anyone know of a good UPS that allows for an external battery bank? Something with Anderson Powerpole connectors would be a plus since I use that for Amateur radio equipment - and it gives me some versatility for other uses in case of an emergency.


If this was already posted somewhere and my search skills missed it, please let me know and I'll review that thread if you can point me in the right direction.

Thanks.

-J

 

[ricardocello]

I don’t think the market makes what you want, at least not inexpensively.
The server market has some external rackmount battery options, but very pricey.

I got to the point of buying bigger AGM lead acid, externally wired to the battery terminals in 1200va APC and TrippLite UPS.
I made a hole in the battery door. Hideous but it worked.
However, the charge rate is too slow for the bigger batteries. The robustness of these inexpensive UPSes is rather poor.
They just aren’t reliable after multiple long power outages.

Ultimately, I moved to building a mostly whole-house Victron Energy Storage System which works like a UPS on a bigger scale.
And then added solar. But it was a big engineering project.

I’m retiring my TrippLite UPS when its lead acid battery dies in the next year or so.
I would think a 3kva inverter/charger with passthrough/UPS capability and 12V lifepo4 would do what you want.
Victron makes them, they aren’t cheap and if you are in the US the split phase versions are an afterthought, so selection is limited.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-2000VA-120V-EN.pdf
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-II-3kVA-2x120V-EN-.pdf

Others here will certainly have different ideas.

 

[Brucey]

I've been working on this issue with an old apc UPS I'm using for nas/router/modem.

I have an IP22 12/30 ($180) charger and a bunch of Redodo mini 12V 100Ah LFP batteries ($250). Adding a Victron 12/500 ($139) to one of the minis would give me plenty of run time and hopefully a solid 5+ years of operation for 400W or less. Double conversion online, load always on the inverter .

However for 2000W you'd need to move to something bigger like a multiplus 12/3000 inverter/charger. That's a lot of amps you'd need prob three 100Ah batteries in parallel to achieve that. These have transfer switches with less than 20msec so seamless to your equipment.

If you don't have a bunch of 12V gear look at a 24/3000 or 48/3000 to get the amperage down to manageable levels. Now your costs are getting up there.

 

[archjeb]

Hi folks. Thanks for the replies.

It seems really odd that the industry hasn't made a better UPS option. I'm kind of shocked that there isn't a LiFePo4 option; but maybe its just because of the constant full charge.

But even if the LiFePo4 batteries took a big hit on life/charge capacity; I can't believe its as bad as what I'm experiencing with Lead acid batteries.

I could move some loads around and get by with a 1500VA UPS...but the battery/runtime is what kills me. I need to get a little longer run time from what I see for APC, Cyberpower, Tripp Lite, etc. Most of them only have 12min run time at full load with an extended battery pack (usually some 9Ah batteries strung together in a rack mount 2RU chassis). @ricardocello What kind of runtime are you getting with the AGM battery? I assume 100Ah battery? How are you charging it with the crappy charge profile of the UPS?

I'm at the point now where I'd like to have an external charger for an external LiFePo4 battery and remove the charge circuit from the UPS so its only for battery backup/inverter operation.

 

[DIYrich]

120V 2.2kVA 1.92kW Line-Interactive Sine Wave UPS, Lithium Iron (LiFePO4) Battery, 2U, LCD, USB, DB9 | Eaton

LiFePO4 battery offers longer life, more cycles and faster recharge 97% line-mode efficiency saves energy costs 4 5-15R & 4 5-15/20R outlets-2 switchable via network interface Compatible with network management cards 11.7 min. runtime at half load; 5.1 min. at full load To use the Auto Probe...

tripplite.eaton.com

For that price, I'd build my own system with an inverter and battery.

 

[archjeb]

120V 2.2kVA 1.92kW Line-Interactive Sine Wave UPS, Lithium Iron (LiFePO4) Battery, 2U, LCD, USB, DB9 | Eaton

LiFePO4 battery offers longer life, more cycles and faster recharge 97% line-mode efficiency saves energy costs 4 5-15R & 4 5-15/20R outlets-2 switchable via network interface Compatible with network management cards 11.7 min. runtime at half load; 5.1 min. at full load To use the Auto Probe...

tripplite.eaton.com

For that price, I'd build my own system with an inverter and battery.

Any suggestions on an inverter that would be good for this application?

A pass through inverter might be an option...but wondering which models would get me to a switch over time that is fast enough for PC equipment? UPS's seem to be in the 6-12ms switch over time (APC specs); but at least the few pass through inverters (or AC bypass or whatever you want to call it) its upwards to 30ms...and I'm not sure if that is fast enough or not.


Thanks.

 

[archjeb]

The Victron Multiplus series seems to have a switchover in < 20ms which gets close to the APC UPS numbers.
Would you suggest the 24v of these? Or another good deal alternative vendor/model?

 

[ricardocello]

What kind of runtime are you getting with the AGM battery? I assume 100Ah battery? How are you charging it with the crappy charge profile of the UPS?

Did this over two years ago, so from memory:

The Tripplite and APC had internal 24V batteries, so I bought 2x 20Ah 12V SLA for one UPS, and 2x 50Ah AGM for the other UPS. Two batteries in series for 24V (should have put a balancer in too, but I didn’t). Also added an inline fuse for safety. The UPS can’t tell that it is a bigger capacity battery, it charges at whatever rate the regular batteries would. Which means it took a loooong time when the new ones were totally drained.

Initially, it doubled or tripled the runtime, proportional to the Ah increase, as you would expect. They just don‘t last very long when you drain them frequently. I view this as a failed experiment.

I haven’t looked at the charge profile these UPSes use, but it seems suboptimal. Maybe they drain too low, or maybe they don’t do proper trickle charge. I doubt they have an equalization cycle. You have to take really good care of lead-acid if you want them to last.
The cheap UPS companies want to sell you their proprietary format replacement batteries. Recurring revenue.

 

[Brucey]

The Victron Multiplus series seems to have a switchover in < 20ms which gets close to the APC UPS numbers.
Would you suggest the 24v of these? Or another good deal alternative vendor/model?

Recent price cuts make them a decent value imo. I'd suggest going with current connected as they double the Victron 5 year warranty out to 10 years.

Victron 24V MultiPlus-II 3kVA 120V Inverter 70A Charger

Experience flexibility and adaptability with the Victron MultiPlus-II 24V Inverter, perfect for on and off-grid applications with industry-leading features.

www.currentconnected.com

Battery wise right now I'd go with two ecoworthy 12V 280Ah lfps in series for $520 each from Amazonbfor max watt hours.. But a 24V 100Ah would be simpler and you wouldn't have to worry about potential imbalance between the two 12V batts.

 

[fmeili1]

You may build one by yourself and your need:

• 12V LFP battery (e.g. A 12V/18AH LFP battery for about $40-$50)
• An AC LFP battery charger (e.g. 10A is about $50-$70)
• A 12V Victron Phonix small inverter (between $100 to $330 available with 250VA/375VA/500VA/800VA/1200VA)

For around $200 you will have an online, double conversion UPS (no switching time) with nearly full capacity usable because the LFP battery could be used completely and the lifetime may be >10 years. An online, double conversion UPS usually costs >$1,500 even only with 1000VA and they usually don't have LFP!

In the meantime I've build two of these (I've started first with an 8AH AGM because I owned it already but changed it later to LFP 18AH). One using the 500VA Victron and the other the 375VA Victron. I'm absolutely happy with this solution.

 

[ricardocello]

For around $200 you will have an online, double conversion UPS (no switching time) with nearly full capacity usable because the LFP battery could be used completely and the lifetime may be >10 years. An online, double conversion UPS usually costs >$1,500 even only with 1000VA and they usually don't have LFP!

This is a simple, inexpensive, and outstanding solution for light loads < 1000W.

You do take the efficiency hit for the double conversion, but it's probably worth it to not worry about grid interruption at all.
Bravo!

Note: It looks like Victron has removed the Phoenix branding, now they are just called "Inverter". When did that happen?
People are still selling Phoenix Inverters.

 

[fmeili1]

This is a simple, inexpensive, and outstanding solution for light loads < 1000W.

You do take the efficiency hit for the double conversion, but it's probably worth it to not worry about grid interruption at all.
Bravo!

Yes, I can really live with the efficiency losses to achieve online double conversion benefits. I have two use cases where an usual UPS with an integrated transfer switch doesn't work at all.

• A mini blackstart UPS for my whole house off-grid solar system. All emergency relays/contactors (battery, PV and AC-in) I'm using are NO and I need a bit of power to activate them to be able to produce solar power. Even the typical 20ms switching time of the internal transfer switches with usual UPS's were too long and my relays/contactors fell back at the moment when they switched. So an online, double conversion UPS was a must have.
• The second is a test which I'm running now to decouple a "dirty" load in my house which causes the HF inverters to make many of my LED's in the house flicker (on the same phase). I've identified the "dirty" load which causes this problem (an old slot machine) and I want to decouple it with this online double conversion UPS and hope the flickering will stop and the HF inverter output voltage will not longer oscillate. Even the oscillation is minimal the LED's in the house are flickering as soon as I connect the slot machine (while the overall load of the house is low).

Note: It looks like Victron has removed the Phoenix branding, now they are just called "Inverter". When did that happen?
People are still selling Phoenix Inverters.

You're right. For what reason ever, they now calling them Sun Inverter... didn't noticed it before...

 

[HighTechLab]

Recent price cuts make them a decent value imo. I'd suggest going with current connected as they double the Victron 5 year warranty out to 10 years.

Victron 24V MultiPlus-II 3kVA 120V Inverter 70A Charger

Experience flexibility and adaptability with the Victron MultiPlus-II 24V Inverter, perfect for on and off-grid applications with industry-leading features.

www.currentconnected.com

Battery wise right now I'd go with two ecoworthy 12V 280Ah lfps in series for $520 each from Amazonbfor max watt hours.. But a 24V 100Ah would be simpler and you wouldn't have to worry about potential imbalance between the two 12V batts.

Doubling that suggestion, here is what we backup our server with:

We run about 1000w 24/7 and it handles that well!

 

[Brucey]

Doubling that suggestion, here is what we backup our server with:

We run about 1000w 24/7 and it handles that well!

Great video. Would best practice be to have the fuse end closer to the battery versus how you have it in the video? I can see why you did it the way you did though to get it all tucked away

 

[archjeb]

You may build one by yourself and your need:

• 12V LFP battery (e.g. A 12V/18AH LFP battery for about $40-$50)
• An AC LFP battery charger (e.g. 10A is about $50-$70)
• A 12V Victron Phonix small inverter (between $100 to $330 available with 250VA/375VA/500VA/800VA/1200VA)

For around $200 you will have an online, double conversion UPS (no switching time) with nearly full capacity usable because the LFP battery could be used completely and the lifetime may be >10 years. An online, double conversion UPS usually costs >$1,500 even only with 1000VA and they usually don't have LFP!

In the meantime I've build two of these (I've started first with an 8AH AGM because I owned it already but changed it later to LFP 18AH). One using the 500VA Victron and the other the 375VA Victron. I'm absolutely happy with this solution.

Just for discussion here
How does the BMS and charger all react and deal with a constant load on the battery with this setup? For example, at full capacity the 1200VA 24vdc version looks like its pulling over 50amps - you'd need a charger that supplies more than that if you are going to do double conversion, no?

 

[DIYrich]

Just for discussion here
How does the BMS and charger all react and deal with a constant load on the battery with this setup? For example, at full capacity the 1200VA 24vdc version looks like its pulling over 50amps - you'd need a charger that supplies more than that if you are going to do double conversion, no?

In your first post, you mentioned 2,000 watts for 15 minutes. That is 40 amps at 50 volts. To get that out of a lifepo4 battery, you need an 80ah battery. That would give you 2 hours of run time. More time than you need, but you need the continous draw. You are basically looking at a 5kWh battery (48v 100 ah). Get a chargeverter to charge the battery. It can provide 4kW continous. Get a 3kW off grid inverter to power the load. You can add panels if you get a solar inverter.

Set the chargeverter for 54.0v, maybe 53.5v, and let the battery sit at 90%. Once a month, bring it up to 58.0v for a few hours to top balance the battery.

 

[fmeili1]

Just for discussion here
How does the BMS and charger all react and deal with a constant load on the battery with this setup? For example, at full capacity the 1200VA 24vdc version looks like its pulling over 50amps - you'd need a charger that supplies more than that if you are going to do double conversion, no?

Yes, that's the bad part of an online double conversion UPS. The charger (power supply) needs to have at least enough power to drive the max. load + some additional amps to charge the battery (in case it's not fully charged) + the conversion losses.
Luckily, for my use cases, my load is only about 100W so it was affordable to find a charger. This is a different story when you need about 2000W - but the principle is the same. As @DIYrich mentioned, a chargeverter together with a 5kWh battery would be a good choice here. Together with a MultiPlus II it sounds like an ideal solution for you.

 

[archjeb]

With the MultiPlus if I want to interface it with a Raspberry PI (which is what I use for my existing UPSs to run scripts on loss of power), do I just need the USB VE.Direct interface and that will suffice? Or any additional items?

-J

 

[JMACK61]

Hi Folks.

Sorry if this is not in the correct forum category. Wasn't sure which one would be most appropriate; but Powerwalls seemed close

I'm wanting to replace some UPSs that I have at home. We lose power often; and I have a generator setup that runs on Natural Gas. But its manual. So I have to manually go out and turn the gas on, and switch over the interlock and select the circuits to transfer over.
It works great and gives me the flexibility to power the loads that are important for whatever is needed.

At any rate, the issue I have is we lose power enough during the winter that the UPSs don't seem to last more than a year or so. The APC, Cyberpower mix of UPSs the lead acid batteries just can't handle the abuse of this many power outages. The time it takes sometimes for me to go out and switch the power over, can drain the batteries significantly. And as you know, those little UPSs have very small batteries...I imagine it takes them past 20% discharge in just a few minutes and that is probably why the life on these are horrible for this use case.

What I'd like is a UPS that I can feed via a fused(for protection)...LiFePo4 battery. A single 100Ah LiFePo4 is going to have significantly more runtime than these dinky 9Ah batteries that are in these off the shelf UPSs from Costco, etc.

Even the higher end rack mounted Cyberpower seem to be focused on all Lead chemistry. Maybe its because they keep the batteries charged full...and LiFePo4 is the wrong chemistry for that? But on the other-hand...its seems crazy to use it for backup power when you are going to drain it so low that you damage the batteries.

What I'm looking for is about a min of 15minutes of full backup power @ 2000watts.

Anyone know of a good UPS that allows for an external battery bank? Something with Anderson Powerpole connectors would be a plus since I use that for Amateur radio equipment - and it gives me some versatility for other uses in case of an emergency.


If this was already posted somewhere and my search skills missed it, please let me know and I'll review that thread if you can point me in the right direction.

Thanks.

-J

I have done a lot with UPS’s. Right now the Lenovo 2.2kW running on 48 volts is working for me. Yes it has 4 dinky 9Ah batteries internal. I charged them up full and unplug them. In the back of the unit (see photo) there is an external battery input where I have a 20kWh DIY battery made up of Nissan Leaf cells and 26650 round cells. My load draw is not much, this unit runs everything except the dryer. And runs for days especially when I put a little back in the battery each day. The unit may cost a bit but every UPS I have and I have many, I got out of the garbage at work. The Lenovo was brand new sitting in the garbage in the rain. I dried it, and tried it. Another discussion is the APC brand UPS efficiency. I have a lot data showing efficiency in the 60’s. the Lenovo is a transformer less inverter. More efficient than the APC SU2200’s (I ran two of them for years). I retired them this year. They have the two heavy transformers that is good for heavy draw on start appliances. Ultimately you and I need to by a Growattor Sol-Ark and stop playing with these UPS’s. They work, nice pure sine wave but they never going to make us happy.

 

[PyroRider]

I own a victron Multiplus II 48/5000 that switches over in <20ms and I also have a Victron Multiplus 24/800 that also switches over in less than 20ms (and has saved my Servers from countless power outages). Both Multiplus'es have integrated chargers and changeover switches and at least for the Multiplus II there is no problem hooking up LiFePo4 batteries

 

[Brucey]

I own a victron Multiplus II 48/5000 that switches over in <20ms and I also have a Victron Multiplus 24/800 that also switches over in less than 20ms (and has saved my Servers from countless power outages). Both Multiplus'es have integrated chargers and changeover switches and at least for the Multiplus II there is no problem hooking up LiFePo4 batteries

Unfortunately the smaller multipluses less than 2000VA aren't available in 120V for US. However with a lot of PC equipment being 240V capable maybe that's not such a big limitation for a ups function.

 

[istl]

The MPP 3048LV-MK (3KW 48V) claims double conversion. "True double conversion AC-DC-AC / zero transfer time for sensitive load"

For the price ($465), it's tempting to try for a UPS.

3048LV-MK (3KW 48V) – Maximum Solar Online

maximumsolar.online

 

[JMACK61]

I own a victron Multiplus II 48/5000 that switches over in <20ms and I also have a Victron Multiplus 24/800 that also switches over in less than 20ms (and has saved my Servers from countless power outages). Both Multiplus'es have integrated chargers and changeover switches and at least for the Multiplus II there is no problem hooking up LiFePo4 batteries

Victron is the way to go. Just getting my feet wet 5 years ago A discarded APC UPS was the way to go. It has a clean sine wave and fast switchover from utility to inverter and back. But man they are so inefficient converting the DC to AC. When I win the lottery I’m getting Victron.

 

[archjeb]

I own a victron Multiplus II 48/5000 that switches over in <20ms and I also have a Victron Multiplus 24/800 that also switches over in less than 20ms (and has saved my Servers from countless power outages). Both Multiplus'es have integrated chargers and changeover switches and at least for the Multiplus II there is no problem hooking up LiFePo4 batteries

Just curious, how are you managing the Multiplus during a long outage?

My current old /crappy UPS, I have a raspberry pi attached that executes a bunch of shutdown scripts on the servers to gracefully shut things down. I'd like to do something similar, but not familiar with what you can do with the Multiplus and the VE.Direct interface preferably with some Python modules.

 

[PyroRider]

Just curious, how are you managing the Multiplus during a long outage?

My current old /crappy UPS, I have a raspberry pi attached that executes a bunch of shutdown scripts on the servers to gracefully shut things down. I'd like to do something similar, but not familiar with what you can do with the Multiplus and the VE.Direct interface preferably with some Python modules.

The big or the small one?
On the big one I only have necessary loads and we usually never have outages longer than 3 hours, with PV input it can hold up for that time. The small one is just the ups for my rack, when I see that its a longer outage I shut everything besides router and wifi off so that it can last 5 to 6 hours too