Used in Australia for years: When will Redox Flow Solar arrive to DIY solar?
- Thread starter Daniel972
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? Fail in all aspects.
These were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist - i’m certain that when they were conceived the manufacturers had no idea that LiFePO4 would last 10+ years.
They cost over twice as much as LiFePO4, and proved to be unreliable - a high percentage of units failed early.
The touted temperature tolerance failed to take in to account that using LiFePO4 in a climate controlled enclosure was still more efficient, less expensive, and more reliable.
Other than that, sure they are great ?
These were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist - i’m certain that when they were conceived the manufacturers had no idea that LiFePO4 would last 10+ years.
They cost over twice as much as LiFePO4, and proved to be unreliable - a high percentage of units failed early.
The touted temperature tolerance failed to take in to account that using LiFePO4 in a climate controlled enclosure was still more efficient, less expensive, and more reliable.
Other than that, sure they are great ?
The Company is still operating. The technology has improved. Can you prove your negative statements anyhow?
What do you want proved? The cost, round trip efficiency, failure rate?
The installed cost for me in 2016 was $16k AUD for 10kwh, i would need 2 units as they need to periodically shut down, so $32kAUD for 20kwh. At the time it was 15kAUD for 20kwh Winston LiFePO4.
The round trip efficiency of the ZCell has proven to be less than 80%, compared to greater than 95% for LiFePO4. This allows for the use of climate controlled LiFePO4 with no more PV than if you use ZCell.
I personally know of seven units purchased - three failed, one replacement unit failed again.
The ZCell marketing made a big deal of being able to “discharge to zero volts”. Kind of pointless when your inverter shuts off at 48V though.
Rather than me go on about ZCell shortcomings, how about give me one good reason why i would choose a ZCell over a climate controlled LiFePO4 battery?
The installed cost for me in 2016 was $16k AUD for 10kwh, i would need 2 units as they need to periodically shut down, so $32kAUD for 20kwh. At the time it was 15kAUD for 20kwh Winston LiFePO4.
The round trip efficiency of the ZCell has proven to be less than 80%, compared to greater than 95% for LiFePO4. This allows for the use of climate controlled LiFePO4 with no more PV than if you use ZCell.
I personally know of seven units purchased - three failed, one replacement unit failed again.
The ZCell marketing made a big deal of being able to “discharge to zero volts”. Kind of pointless when your inverter shuts off at 48V though.
Rather than me go on about ZCell shortcomings, how about give me one good reason why i would choose a ZCell over a climate controlled LiFePO4 battery?
Example: First Tesla cars were ridiculously expensive and unreliable. Now their price have gone down to a reasonable level reliability has improved as well .
Li Fe Po Battery technology is toxic.
It has to be purchased and shipped from an autocratic China, with no laws protecting customers, and no constitution guarding human rights.
LiFePo4 chemistry technology was "aquired" ( Edit: changed from previus 'stolen’ ) from Hydro Quebec under pretext that it would only be marketed and sold in China. I am not trying to make you buy Z-cell again. I congratulate you for your cheap Winston battery find. But if you love your country, then develop the good things that is offered there. China needs true competition. Otherwhise we will all end up living like the Chinese, like another type of farm animal.
Li Fe Po Battery technology is toxic.
It has to be purchased and shipped from an autocratic China, with no laws protecting customers, and no constitution guarding human rights.
LiFePo4 chemistry technology was "aquired" ( Edit: changed from previus 'stolen’ ) from Hydro Quebec under pretext that it would only be marketed and sold in China. I am not trying to make you buy Z-cell again. I congratulate you for your cheap Winston battery find. But if you love your country, then develop the good things that is offered there. China needs true competition. Otherwhise we will all end up living like the Chinese, like another type of farm animal.
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wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Bulky (low energy density), low round trip efficiency (real world 73-77%), parasitic energy draw, high cost, more complex, less reliable and the fact they need to shut down frequently (<72 hours) for a maintenance cycle meaning that in reality you need three of them to have 24x7 power.
But they have some upsides as well which means they have their niche use cases (standby/seasonal storage/remote locations - hence they have a place in Australia) but for DIY home and mobile solar they are not a particularly suitable technology, and this is after all a DIY solar forum.
en.wikipedia.org
But they have some upsides as well which means they have their niche use cases (standby/seasonal storage/remote locations - hence they have a place in Australia) but for DIY home and mobile solar they are not a particularly suitable technology, and this is after all a DIY solar forum.
Bromine leaks aren't much good for your health either.
Reflow are made in Thailand. I guess that makes them OK.
Human rights in Thailand - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
curiouscarbon
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grateful for this thread and the responses!
redox flow batteries interested me back when first read about technology.
as others mentioned, there are some performance aspects that are less optimal than LiFePO4 chemistry.
round trip efficiency was one that really made me pause.
i still think it should of course be further researched and developed to see what it can grow into
for my own Energy Storage System DIY, i still target LiFePO4 chemistry as "most optimal for my personal needs"
thanks again for the contributions!
redox flow batteries interested me back when first read about technology.
as others mentioned, there are some performance aspects that are less optimal than LiFePO4 chemistry.
round trip efficiency was one that really made me pause.
i still think it should of course be further researched and developed to see what it can grow into
for my own Energy Storage System DIY, i still target LiFePO4 chemistry as "most optimal for my personal needs"
thanks again for the contributions!
curiouscarbon
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one aspect that is kind of fascinating to me about flow batteries is that the fluid needs to be pumped (this is my understanding).
so there is a tradeoff of the geometry of the fluid storage and gravity force and energy required to pump the fluid for energy input or output.
a tall container would require more energy to pump fluid.
a flat container would require less energy to pump fluid.
kind of makes me giggle. flow batteries almost make LiFePO4 and other Lithium-Ion chemistries look like "solid state" in relation.
with LiFePO4 cells, there is a physical flow occurring, but the distance is kept very short by virtue of all the layers being thin and such.
cheers!
edit: after reflection, the pumps could simply be at the bottom of whatever aspect ratio container, so ha.
double edit: error in phrasing
so there is a tradeoff of the geometry of the fluid storage and gravity force and energy required to pump the fluid for energy input or output.
a tall container would require more energy to pump fluid.
a flat container would require less energy to pump fluid.
kind of makes me giggle. flow batteries almost make LiFePO4 and other Lithium-Ion chemistries look like "solid state" in relation.
with LiFePO4 cells, there is a physical flow occurring, but the distance is kept very short by virtue of all the layers being thin and such.
cheers!
edit: after reflection, the pumps could simply be at the bottom of whatever aspect ratio container, so ha.
double edit: error in phrasing
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wattmatters
Solar Wizard
And are made in China, using LiFePO4.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Meanwhile the Electric Jesus is hardly on the side of human rights:
www.theguardian.com
Elon Musk praises Chinese workers for ‘burning the 3am oil’ – here’s what that really looks like
Tesla’s massive Shanghai ‘Giga-factory’ pushes its workers to the limit to meet production targets amid an ongoing pandemic lockdown
www.theguardian.com
curiouscarbon
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mining familyMeanwhile the Electric Jesus is hardly on the side of human rights:
Elon Musk praises Chinese workers for ‘burning the 3am oil’ – here’s what that really looks like
Tesla’s massive Shanghai ‘Giga-factory’ pushes its workers to the limit to meet production targets amid an ongoing pandemic lockdown
So you can’t think of a reason to buy them then??
I actually don’t use Winston personally, i included their price as it was the most relevant comparison.
I use LiFeTech lithium, more Australian than ZCell.
You asked why the ZCell didn’t take off for mainstream storage - and received several answers all saying essentially the same thing. Then went off on a human rights tangent, that in my case was also misguided.
Maybe you should look into Nickel-Iron cells, i think they would be perfect for you.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
I forgot, their cycle life count is also lower than LiFePO4.
robby
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That is not a totally accurate statement. China was offered LFP technology because no one else was willing to back it because of the lower energy density when it first came out. China was given a 10 year exclusive royalty free deal to manufacturer and distribute them in 2012. The contract is up this year and many companies in Asia and the USA are already gearing up to make them.
3) IP rights kept LFP confined to the Chinese market; this will change after 2022
LFP cathode producers explained to Roskill that the consortium managing LFP’s IP rights reached an agreement with the Chinese battery industry a decade ago in which, as long as LFP was produced and used within China, the consortium would not charge Chinese manufacturers a licensing fee. As a result, the price of Chinese LFP batteries has always been considerably lower than non-Chinese LFP batteries. However, the patents’ restrictions over LFP will start to expire in 2022. Simultaneously, the limitation of LFP exports on Chinese producers will be largely removed, along with the licensing fee for non-Chinese LFP cell producers. The removal of this IP barrier could become the largest opportunity for LFP-based Li-ion batteries to rapidly gain market share in the EV market outside China.https://roskill.com/news/batteries-...p-rights-esg-simplified-battery-pack-designs/
https://www.lifepo4ag.com/
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Hedges
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And yet that is what I care least about.
When PV panels cost me $5/W, efficiency of everything else mattered.
Net metering with efficiency > 100% was a boon.
Then, time of use rates got changed so efficiency could be as low as 33%. But with me able to roll my own kWh for $0.025 each, that seemed OK. I could give PG&E 3 kWh in the morning, costing me $0.075, and get in return 1 kWh late afternoon (rather than paying them $0.45)
With NEM-3.0 efficiency looks to be 0.0 %
Now, if I could get 50% or even 33% efficiency from a battery I'd be happy. So long as it only costs pennies per kWh of cycle life.
danibzibur
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These workers are at least able to eat real food. Elon can not be blamed for keeping his factory going during the CCP Zero CoViD Shanghai madness.Meanwhile the Electric Jesus is hardly on the side of human rights:
Elon Musk praises Chinese workers for ‘burning the 3am oil’ – here’s what that really looks like
Tesla’s massive Shanghai ‘Giga-factory’ pushes its workers to the limit to meet production targets amid an ongoing pandemic lockdown
danibzibur
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Hats of to those building a Solar work shed, that don't have curious kids looming over and about their cool looking solar equipment. I am a bit taken back by the toxicity and scarcity of LFP cells. I was hoping to get my fantastic world circum-navigation project on wheels in around 4 years time. Now it looks like I have to wait another decade for the "good" batteries to become Easily replacable, and DIY friendly, as in Non Toxic.
danibzibur
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Can you show me the origin of this information.
In the video above it's stated that Redox Flow Batteries exceed LiFePo4 cycle life count by a factor of 4 or so.
Wikipedia states:
"While it has technical advantages over conventional rechargeables, such as potentially separable liquid tanks and near unlimited longevity, current implementations are comparatively less powerful and require more sophisticated electronics."
Source:
Flow battery - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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danibzibur
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Could you show the source of this information (in contradiction to):
Quoting:
"The most recent 5 years from 2013 to the present saw the mass production of greatly inferior quality lithium batteries in China. As with so many products the Chinese simply stole and copied the LiFePO4 battery without ever paying any royalties or recognition to the rightful American owners of the LiFePO4 patent."
from link:
