Used in Australia for years: When will Redox Flow Solar arrive to DIY solar?

[Hedges]

Regarding more statements in that linked page,

I think battery quality has been improving.
I haven't heard of LiFePO4 battery fires except due to DIY assembly issues.
I've heard of many fires involving other lithium chemistry, not from China.

 

[robby]

Could you show the source of this information (in contradiction to):
Quoting:
"The most recent 5 years from 2013 to the present saw the mass production of greatly inferior quality lithium batteries in China. As with so many products the Chinese simply stole and copied the LiFePO4 battery without ever paying any royalties or recognition to the rightful American owners of the LiFePO4 patent."
from link:

NSFAQ | LifeTech

I gave you the Quote from the Link that I provided.
I also think your link is fake news for the same reason @Hedges stated. Do you really think all the batteries companies like BYD, Simpliphi, Blue Ion and Fortress batteries could be selling batteries in America that have stolen IP.

 

[danibzibur]

Sounds like typical source of fake news.

Let me assure you that if Chinese LiFePO4 batteries were being sold to U.S. purchasers in violation of U.S. patent rights, they would have been shut down.

Maybe they will be. LiFePo4 chemistry hasn't been around in thew US for that many years.

 

[Hedges]

Ever heard of a Patent Troll?

Patent troll - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[danibzibur]

I gave you the Quote from the Link that I provided.
I also think your link is fake news for the same reason @Hedges stated. Do you really think all the batteries companies like BYD, Simpliphi, Blue Ion and Fortress batteries could be selling batteries in America that have stolen IP.

Everything is possible. The link you provided and I believe you quoted from is not available to me here in Israel.

 

[danibzibur]

Ever heard of a Patent Troll?

Patent troll - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are for sure patent trolls. Especially in the USA, but they specialize in abuse of the legal IP system. The link I quoted is from a Company that actually assemble LiFePo4 Battery Banks in Australia according to another memder of DIY solar Forum.

 

[Hedges]

Our understanding is that LiFePO4 didn't get market/manufacturer interest here in the U.S.
By granting companies in China exclusive rights for a number years, it was developed and deployed on a large scale, e.g. for electric busses.

Much better than the alternative of selling to a domestic manufacturer who buys it simply to avoid the risk of having to compete with it.

The point of patent trolls is they will acquire patents and make money by enforcing the rights. Even if original inventor doesn't have the assets to pursue violations involving imported Chinese goods, the trolls can fund such an effort, therefore providing such a "service".
Rest assured that if the imports were in violation of patents, something would have been done about it.
As alleged violations of PV panel anti-dumping tariffs have just killed the industry here.

It is possible that company can only access 2nd rate leftovers from Chinese LiFePO4 manufacturing. We understand 1st grade cells are used in their domestic market. For vehicles, cells have to be quality and matched.

 

[sunshine]

Eternal lifespan fireproof charge/recharge 50v 10kWh battery banks manufactured and sold for years in Australia.

I live 30k from Redfow and have followed them from their beginning. It really hasn't developed beyond the concept stage even though a number of installations have been publicised I am not sure if these were based on a 100% commercial decision or included other inducements.
I know of no home installations.

I filter out any new battery technology with a ebay or aliexpress search.

 

[wattmatters]

These workers are at least able to eat real food. Elon can not be blamed for keeping his factory going during the CCP Zero CoViD Shanghai madness.

I was pointing out the delicious irony of the one who brought up LiFePO4 battery toxicity / China / human rights and then used Telsa EVs as as example of how things can be improved when they are made in China with LiFePo4 batteries and have workers operating is less than ideal conditions while Reflow is made in that bastion of human rights, Thailand.

Can you show me the origin of this information.
In the video above it's stated that Redox Flow Batteries exceed LiFePo4 cycle life count by a factor of 4 or so.

Yeah, I wouldn't be believing a PR puff piece video.

Redflow warrants their 10 kWh battery for 36500 kWh or 10 years before the electrode stack is cooked. That gives them a lower cycle count than a quality LiFePO4 battery. That's the actual specifications they publish on their website.

Then of course there is the Battery Test Centre's experience in which they report:

4.5. Redflow ZCell

Operational Issues
This is the fifth Redflow battery to be installed in the Test Centre, with four replacements previously due to contaminated electrolyte and electrolyte leaks. The battery stack of the fifth battery was replaced in November 2020. Since then, the Redflow battery has not experienced any operational issues.

The first unit was installed in 2018, and was made in the good ol' USA before they switched to Thailand.

Four failures in four years. But hey, #5 is going OK so far. Hardly a ringing endorsement. And each company knows they are supplying to the national battery test centre, so it's not like that don't have fair warning about making sure they don't send them a lemon.

You can download their full reports from their website linked above.

 

[Daniel972]

I live 30k from Redfow and have followed them from their beginning. It really hasn't developed beyond the concept stage even though a number of installations have been publicised I am not sure if these were based on a 100% commercial decision or included other inducements.
I know of no home installations.

I filter out any new battery technology with a ebay or aliexpress search.

I found this video slide presentation of their current development. They are of course not working with home installations yet. We mere mortals will have to wait until the tech has been adapted towards us home brewers.

 

[Daniel972]

Now it looks like I have to wait another decade for the "good" batteries to become Easily replacable, and DIY friendly, as in Non Toxic.

Or you could do what this guy's doing (maybe not a flow battery, but still considerable use of a few honey jars or soda cans...)

 

[wattmatters]

Look, I don't want to sound negative - just pointing out that these are not really suitable for home use, and are not really a DIY friendly units.

They do and will have their use case, there is an energy storage niche for them, and I wish them well with development and every success.

 

[Daniel972]

I was pointing out the delicious irony of the one who brought up LiFePO4 battery toxicity / China / human rights and then used Telsa EVs as as example of how things can be improved when they are made in China with LiFePo4 batteries and have workers operating is less than ideal conditions while Reflow is made in that bastion of human rights, Thailand.

Thailand have still to commit the gross atrocities that we've seen coming from China over the decades. I don't think it a bit wise to put _all_ the investments of our "green" western infra structure into the hands of those that seek to destabilize, dominate, divide, destroy and conquer.

 

[Daniel972]

Look, I don't want to sound negative - just pointing out that these are not really suitable for home use, and are not really a DIY friendly units.

They do and will have their use case, there is an energy storage niche for them, and I wish them well with development and every success.

For now we are only discussing the Redflow batteries. There are at least two other companies already deploying flow batteries of different types into industrial use cases. The technology behind these upcoming initiatives may just be simple enough to DIY. in your own back yard. I wouldn't mind constructing a flow battery for my Solar work shed assembly.

 

[wattmatters]

Thailand have still to commit the gross atrocities that we've seen coming from China over the decades. I don't think it a bit wise to put _all_ the investments of our "green" western infra structure into the hands of those that seek to destabilize, dominate, divide, destroy and conquer.

Unlike, say, how western nations have behaved over the past few centuries? I'm not an apologist for China by any measure and yes they are committing some awful stuff but c'mon, it's all a bit hypocritical to be pointing fingers without recognising what our own privileged positions have been built on - colonial imperialism and the marginalisation/eradication of local indigenous populations and/or slavery.

For now we are only discussing the Redflow batteries.

And can you guarantee not one single component of a Reflow battery energy storage system comes from China?
That would be pretty astounding if true.

I wouldn't mind constructing a flow battery for my Solar work shed assembly.

I do look forward to reading of your progress. Start a new thread on your DIY flow battery.

 

[Daniel972]

As alleged violations of PV panel anti-dumping tariffs have just killed the industry here.

Could you please clarify this also (I am not following the legislative PV-cell market soap opera, wherever it may have developed.)

 

[Daniel972]

...it's all a bit hypocritical to be pointing fingers without recognising what our own privileged positions have been built on - colonial imperialism and the marginalisation/eradication of local indigenous populations and/or slavery.

Human history is really horrifying, I agree. But in context of flow batteries vs LiFePo4, my personal vote is on what I can put my hands on in my own back yard, and that is not Lithium. I don't like what happens in Beijing or Shanghai right now. I will not finance it. Don't blame me for human history, cause I wasn't around to finance or complain about any of it.

And can you guarantee not one single component of a Reflow battery energy storage system comes from China?

I find it hard to believe that even me at work in my own back yard will be able to avoid using electronic components, plastic tanks, hoses, etc made in China, but I have every reason to try and avoid cheap crap in designing and assembling my home made solar battery.

 

[wattmatters]

but I have every reason to try and avoid cheap crap in designing and assembling my home made solar battery.

As do we all but not everything from China is crap and not everything from elsewhere isn't.

And if you only want to use what's in your backyard, then you'll be screwed.

 

[curiouscarbon]

the concept is appealing to me.

for cooling needs, some use tanks of water, and remove heat overnight or something.

"ice battery" for heat

then "buying more capacity" is just acquiring more water, which is in the air in most places. throw in some insulation to keep it efficient.

so inexpensive and appealing, it can buffer many Joules of energy for very low cost, and truly infinite cycle life (freezing/thaw)

if there were an electric equivalent of this, i would love to be able to build one.

but i imagine, the fluid inside would be much less friendly to my biology than water (H2O)

 

[Hedges]

Could you please clarify this also (I am not following the legislative PV-cell market soap opera, wherever it may have developed.)

Antidumping and Countervailing Duties Investigation: What Is It and What Does It Mean for the Solar Industry? - Kinect Solar

Learn more about the antidumping and countervailing duties investigation and what it means for the future of the US solar industry.

kinectsolar.com